D&D (2024) No Appendix N Equivalent?

[Yaarel]

You shouldn't care if it doesn't interest you.
It's just included in the book for those readers who are interested in knowing the creative team's inspiration.
That's why it is included as an appendix, it's not vital to the PHB itself.
A fitting comparison are the appendices from the Lord of the Rings (coincidentally a book from Appendix N).

But this is a huge list − eating up pages. What percentage of the purchasers of the book do you predict who need/want this list in the book?

 

[Yaarel]

[doublepost]

 

[Yaarel]

It's just included in the book for those readers who are interested in knowing the creative team's inspiration.

By the way, I am interested in what inspires designers and how they put something together. Yet this feels more like a DnDBeyond article, or maybe a video interview.

I am not seeing the benefit of bulking up the page count of a book. It doesnt help me play the game. Or is there something that I am missing here?

 

[Parmandur]

By the way, I am interested in what inspires designers and how they put something together. Yet this feels more like a DnDBeyond article, or maybe a video interview.

I am not seeing the benefit of bulking up the page count of a book. It doesnt help me play the game. Or is there something that I am missing here?

I think the thing is in 2024 they had a spare page (bwcause books are printed in locks of 32, you can have apare space to fill), and decided an homage to Appendix N would be fun.

This time, they didn't have room for anything.

 

[Retros_x]

As you would choose to leave him out, that either means not talking about cosmic horror at all, or doing so in an impoverished way.

No I would not choose that, you misread me. I would choose to not write an Appendix at all, because as it was already stated and you prove with your argumentation, it will always be a point of contention. Either you put Lovecraft in for example for reasons you state than others are mad because he is a racist or they don't see cosmic horror as relevant to D&D as other genres and influence they miss from the Appendix. Or you left him out than people like you are mad. In the end its just a lot of butthurt because someones important artists is not included and they feel unseen for a weird parasocial reason. New DMs will not suffer because one author is included or not.

And additionally it is not needed. I asked the DMs i know personally, nobody used the Appendix in 2014 and they all are already quite versed in the fantasy genres. I would argue that most DMs new and old alike are already familar with the genre and already get their inspiration from somewhere.

 

[Immeril]

But this is a huge list − eating up pages. What percentage of the purchasers of the book do you predict who need/want this list in the book?

I can only speak for myself of course, but without this appendix I would never have known about Tigana, The Eyes of the Dragon, The Face in the Frost, The Forgotten Beasts of Eld and the Earthsea and Bas-Lag series. Even if I haven't used any of these novels in my games, they have definitely enhanced my reading experience.

I am not seeing the benefit of bulking up the page count of a book. It doesnt help me play the game. Or is there something that I am missing here?

Parmandur's reply to your post sounds plausible.

 

[Parmandur]

No I would not choose that, you misread me. I would choose to not write an Appendix at all, because as it was already stated and you prove with your argumentation, it will always be a point of contention. Either you put Lovecraft in for example for reasons you state than others are mad because he is a racist or they don't see cosmic horror as relevant to D&D as other genres and influence they miss from the Appendix. Or you left him out than people like you are mad. In the end its just a lot of butthurt because someones important artists is not included and they feel unseen for a weird parasocial reason. New DMs will not suffer because one author is included or not.

And additionally it is not needed. I asked the DMs i know personally, nobody used the Appendix in 2014 and they all are already quite versed in the fantasy genres. I would argue that most DMs new and old alike are already familar with the genre and already get their inspiration from somewhere.

I found like two or three reads from the 2014 list (at least Saladin Achned). But, yeah, less useful than a visit to r/Fantasy for recs.

 

[Yaarel]

I think the thing is in 2024 they had a spare page (bwcause books are printed in locks of 32, you can have apare space to fill), and decided an homage to Appendix N would be fun.

This time, they didn't have room for anything.

One page? Who does this help? There are many styles. Or is it for Greyhawk only?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Any "Classic D&D" favorite books, kinda does sound like a small group of old school grognards trying to pressure WotC to confirm and commit to their old school playstyle.

...which is why I've said several times over that that would be just one entry among several. Have I messed up in communicating that? I don't understand how you can read any of what I wrote and get even the slightest notion that this is about entrenching any playstyle or preference.

By contrast, I really dont want to see a list of Conan books or Lovecraft. It would be zero benefit for the playstyles that I find interesting.

Most of these wouldn't be for you. They wouldn't be for me, either. The point is to cast a wide net, not to make every entry a resounding hit. I care very, very much about reaching out to folks whose playstyle I don't share and including both rules and tools/advice that would be great for them and pointless for me. That's how we make a game that is actually big-tent, from a playstyle and gameplay-preference perspective. Well, that and inclusive language, diversity in art, getting more voices from more places, etc., but WotC is already making progress on those things.

Even for the playstyles that do interest me, I dont understand the benefit of a list of favorite books, movies, and tv shows.

Have you truly never thought, "I'd really like to do X, but I don't really have any good examples of how that works"? Because I have. I had to go scouring the internet, soliciting advice from dozens of people, hitting up legit actual authors and experts on the topic, in order to get enough background to where I felt I could capture the feel, the essence, of the particular campaign concept I wanted to express (in this case, "Arabian Nights"). Having a short chapter in the DMG that goes over how people can do that, and then gives explicit examples and shows how those examples contribute to the final result, would be a godsend for many fresh-faced, green DMs struggling even to get started.

Seriously. This would have been very, very useful for every single DM I have personally helped get started in the hobby. Showing people how to develop a campaign milieu or concept, giving examples of great works for various campaign premises that have been popular over the years (as noted, cosmic horror, post-apocalyptic, Age of Sail, etc.), and how one can leverage sources like that into developing one's own spin? That would be wonderful!

Which is absolutely correct. The answer to “what is D&D?” Is “all of these.” (Plus the science fiction and horror sections). Trying to officially “narrow it down.” Is really about having novels you don’t like declared “badwrongfun”.

Correct, and useless. Which was the point. People who are just starting their DMing career need guidance. Those who already know what they're doing neither need nor care for such advice. "Do whatever you want! You're the DM!" was the biggest problem with the 5e DMG. It has tons of """advice""" that boils down to, "You can do X. Or yoou can not do X! You decide." Without giving even a whisper of explanation for WHY or, in several cases, even HOW.

A book purporting to guide Dungeon Masters should be an actual guide. Meaning, something for people who need guidance.

 

[Parmandur]

One page? Who does this help? There are many styles. Or is it for Greyhawk only?

...what? We aren't talking about Greyhawk here, this is about the "novels we like" list the designers put in the 2024 PHB. They used Gygax idiosyncratic personal reading list from the 1EbDMG, and added a bunch of more modern writers like Saladin Achmed, Brandon Sanderson, Terry Pratchett, etc.

It is juat a list of authors and books thst have influenced the game background. It made a lot more sense in the late 1970s when getting deep cut recommendations was nice, because finding books could be hard.