D&D 5E No love for the hand axe?

[Sacrosanct]

The panga was actually primarily used in East Africa, not the Caribbean. A panga blade is effectively a machete, not an axe.

Actually, the panga is also from the Caribbean. That's what they are still called. And the point was, was that they are more axe-like than they are knife like (they are used much like an axe), which is what I assume your point was to argue they axe was a worse tool than the knife by bringing that up as an example.

But I was discussing an islander at sea, not inland. Surviving at sea rarely involves chopping thick heavy rope, wood, or other materials; or digging holes (something larger blades are often better at than a knife). A more modest blade is more useful in a survival situation at sea to cut fish, help repair engines or other equipment, and in extreme emergencies, create other tools like spears. Even something simple like screwing in a screw (Phillips or regular slot) is done easier with a knife onboard a ship than an axe. For Caribbean fishermen caught out on the ocean, a panga (or an axe) would have less utility than a knife.

A couple things. Firstly, how many D&D games take place on the ocean as compared to in a forest or jungle or on land anywhere really? Are you really arguing that a knife is overall better than an axe because in this highly specialized scenario that hardly ever happens in a game is more important than the most frequent scenario(s) that do happen in the game? Secondly, your example include fixing engines and screwing in screws as supporting points? Seriously? Thirdly, many of the things you are listing can only really be done with a small finer blade, not one that has a large blade. And if given the choice of living the the outdoors and having an axe or a pocketknife, the choice becomes even more obvious.

Again, the best tool is based on the environment and situation one finds himself in. Something you refuse to acknowledge.

Maybe you should actually read the thread before commenting then:

Maybe it depends on where you're from.

Btw, go try to use an axe for first aid instead of a more precise knife in a survival or emergency situation. You'll often end up doing more harm than good. Try to dig a splinter out from under your fingernail with an axe. Or try getting a burrowing bug out from under your skin (happened to my ex-boss and it wasn't a tick that heat could help with). There is a reason doctors rarely use axes.

Try fixing your backpack with an axe.

Try using your axe as a stake to hold a rope on your tent (you might not be in an area where wood is plentiful and you can carve one). And if you do have to carve wooden stakes, it's easier to dig smaller holes with a knife if the ground is too hard or rocky to pound the stacks into.

Again, a) uses that come up much less often then actually using the tool for what it's needed for (chopping, hammering, cutting) and b) really only can be done with a small blade in most of these examples anyway. To use your own ridiculous analogy, there's a reason why woodsmen don't use a scalpel over an axe when they go in the woods. Good lord...

Also, you don't dig holes for stakes. Despite what you said, I'm seriously beginning to wonder if you have ever actually been out in the woods.

I also personally think that it is easier to baton split wood with a knife (or a machete) instead of an axe. Sure, when you have perfectly chain saw or hand saw 90 degree angled wood, an axe can often split a short narrow log fairly easy. I just personally think that a knife works better in less ideal situations and tends to be longer than an axe blade, so it can split thicker logs (or be used to trim split thicker logs into thinner logs). And swinging an axe is not exactly the safest thing a person can do.

Again, I'm seriously thinking this is all BS and you've never actually done any of this. For one, batoning wood with an axe is easier than with a knife. You don't always have to swing an axe when splitting wood. If fact, most experienced people don't for smaller logs. They do it just like a knife. Only with one or two hits rather than a half dozen or more that you would with a knife. And you won't ever break your axe by doing this where you can very easily break your knife blade. In fact, one popular technique is to have the axe handle run nearly parallel to the log and hold both the axe and the log when swinging downward because then the axe splits it, the two pieces don't go flying or fall away--you have them in your hand. For larger logs (something a knife can't even do), you can baton or split like you want.

Experts in a coniferous forest. I already conceded that point, but you are still talking about it.

Experts in any forest, not just coniferous. I've lived in Alaska and Oregon, and we have just as many leafy trees here in Oregon as we do pine. Besides of which, the type of tree doesn't matter, and bringing that up is a red herring. What matters is that they both produce logs and branches, where an axe is clearly superior. And I bring it up because all examples of real world people who actually do live in the outdoors where 90% of PCs will encounter the same scenario (unless you're playing Dark Sun), they all choose an axe over a knife, and do all these tasks that you have claimed can't really be done.

And, just because people who are experts can do something, doesn't mean that most normal people can easily do the same thing. It takes years of practice for those people to use their axes for some of the things they use them for, just like it takes years of practice to be good at gymnastics, golf, or a wide variety of other activities. Just because those people can use their axes well for many things doesn't mean that most people can. Most people at better at using a knife than an axe. That's just a fact because most people use knives more than they use axes.

It doesn't take years. It literally takes minutes or hours. All you have to do is learn a technique, and it's not all that hard. Also, I was talking about rangers and barbarians. You know, PCs who would be experts? Again it seems you haven't even read this thread.

You are deriving a conclusion from an invalid premise. Just because an axe might be better for you in your outdoor environment does not mean that it is better for most people in many other environments.

Lord Jesus the irony. This coming from a guy who is arguing the knife is better than an axe for a D&D PC in the outdoor exploration phase because it's better at fixing engines, screwing in screws, and more useful on a boat. :rolleyes

Argumentum ad populum.

Despite what you claimed as your own experience (which I highly doubt based on your arguments so far), these are people who do this stuff a lot, and are enthusiasts. I would consider them subject matter experts. If you pull some wild claim out of your bum about which racing tire is the best for a race, and I ask a bunch of people who race cars, your position is to hand wave it away based on "argumentum ad populum"? Your arguments are quickly going from the "man what" stage to just outright absurd.

 

[Sacrosanct]

While I agree, I think most people lack the experience (or, honestly, the concern) as to whether or not a handaxe, a dagger, or a vorpal sword is the best tool to set up camp for the night. It certainly doesn't come up enough to make it a priority over +1 average damage. .

I think it's both. I think most people without experience at something make an assumption about how easy it is when the reality is much harder. See my reference to rock climbing earlier. I know for a fact I've seen a lot of players who assume you can make camp just as easy with a sword as you can with an axe, because "they both blades, right?". RPG players like to think of themselves as knowledgeable in everything because of this geek superiority thing, or they read about it once, I guess. I see it all the time, and it's rarely true.

Funny thing about RPGs is that we role-play out all these various scenarios: how to set up camp, how to fix a car, how to set up defenses, how to bandage wounds, etc. But one thing that's consistent is that if you take someone who actually knows what they are doing from real life experience, they will almost always roll their eyes at gamers who *think* they know. In fact, it's one of the biggest arguments FOR character skill over player skill system. When you combine this with the second part of your statement, it's no wonder why things like this are just ignored or handwaved away in most games.

 

[KarinsDad]

Also, you don't dig holes for stakes. Despite what you said, I'm seriously beginning to wonder if you have ever actually been out in the woods.

"In the woods".

I didn't say in the woods.

If you have a metal stake or hard wooden stake in the moister softer earth of woods or forests, sure. No hole digging required.


On a mountainside backpacking with mostly scrub bushes and small pine trees where the wood might be soft and the ground can be like rock, yes one can often spin a knife to drill a hole for a makeshift stake. If necessarily, you then wedge your stake into the hole with small rocks and/or place larger rocks on it to keep it in place, or alternatively, if you can find a perfect rock for the job, you use that instead of wood. You still need a narrow hole (although it is sometimes possible to just use rock outcroppings or logs or other things to tie a tent off to without stakes).

You have got to stop looking at the world in your own limited experience. There are a lot of environments other than "the woods", even in D&D.

 

[PnPgamer]

Oh that was bad. Wonderful, but bad.

Thank you, it is a form of art.

 

[TwoSix]

In fact, it's one of the biggest arguments FOR character skill over player skill system. When you combine this with the second part of your statement, it's no wonder why things like this are just ignored or handwaved away in most games.

To be fair, I handwave it because I simply have no patience for logistical issues during D&D. In my last several Pathfinder games, I've bought magical items simply to ensure I never have to worry about things like camping or finding food.

 

[Sacrosanct]

For further informational purposes:

Hatchet over Knife (watch only 1st minute is fine. This guy also does instructional work)

Camp axe vs knife (note how he splits the wood with the axe at the 1:45 mark)

hatchet vs knife chopping comparison (really shows how you'll be there all freaking day with a knife)

Axe vs knife overall utility comparison

Skinning a goat (just as easy with an axe as with a knife. In fact, easier to do things like break the pelvis with an ax)


Then again, I fully admit the basic context of my argument is considering what environment the typical PC will face in most D&D games--woodland survival and exploration. If most of your gameplay is on a boat or if you need to fix engines or pull slivers, then I will admit the knife is probably better.

 

[Sacrosanct]

"In the woods".

I didn't say in the woods.

If you have a metal stake or hard wooden stake in the moister softer earth of woods or forests, sure. No hole digging required.


On a mountainside backpacking with mostly scrub bushes and small pine trees where the wood might be soft and the ground can be like rock, yes one can often spin a knife to drill a hole for a makeshift stake. If necessarily, you then wedge your stake into the hole with small rocks and/or place larger rocks on it to keep it in place, or alternatively, if you can find a perfect rock for the job, you use that instead of wood. You still need a narrow hole (although it is sometimes possible to just use rock outcroppings or logs or other things to tie a tent off to without stakes).

You have got to stop looking at the world in your own limited experience. There are a lot of environments other than "the woods", even in D&D.

No, one does not drill a hole for tent stakes. That is fundamentally flawed because in order for a tent stake to work, it has to have tight friction in the ground. For someone with the experience you claim, I wouldn't think I'd have to explain this.

When people need tent stakes in rocky ground, they do this. Heck, the worst thing you can do is plunge your knife in the ground and dig out holes (and rocky ground to boot). I cringe just even thinking about that. What a great way to ruin it. Putting a blade in the ground is a cardinal sin.

This is basic camping 101 stuff here. I am seriously thinking your claims are all BS, because the more you talk, the more wrong you are about your instructions on how to do things. Not just wrong, but literally the last thing you should be doing. I also find it extremely ironic that you keep accusing me of having a narrow vision of my own experience, when your entire basis for your argument is reliant on a highly situational scenario where most PCs would never find themselves in, where my argument is based on the typical environment most every PC finds themselves in.

 

[Sacrosanct]

To be fair, I handwave it because I simply have no patience for logistical issues during D&D. In my last several Pathfinder games, I've bought magical items simply to ensure I never have to worry about things like camping or finding food.

I think most people are like this. Even myself most times. And now with cantrips like fire bolt, light, and mending? Kind of makes a lot of these things moot. I think most D&D players look forward to the next combat or next social interaction, and spend little time worrying about exploration outside of basic maps and searching for secret doors/traps. largely, because the DM isn't an expert either, so how would anyone at the table really know the right tools to have? Just easier to assume it's done.

 

[KarinsDad]

Funny thing about RPGs is that we role-play out all these various scenarios: how to set up camp, how to fix a car, how to set up defenses, how to bandage wounds, etc.

You roleplay this stuff?

Defense, sure a little bit. It takes 2 minutes to roleplay the defenses that will be set up, even if it takes the PCs hours to actually do it. One doesn't go into a lot of details, at least at any table I've played at unless one or two players want to be meticulous about it.

How to bandage a wound? Are you serious? In 40 years of gaming, I've never asked a player (or even had a player tell me as far as I can remember) how to bandage a wound. Even in a super detailed RPG like Rolemaster where broken legs are possible, I never asked a player how to set a splint. It's assumed that character knowledge combined with any sort of skill roll (first aid in the case of RM) and issue solved. That's what skill checks in the game are for. To determine task resolution based on character knowledge, not player knowledge. The player wants to go look for an herb to help with healing, sure. Players have tried that.

You seriously go into the depth of detail on how to fix a car in an RPG and roleplay that out? Yikes! Our group never roleplays pedestrian stuff like this. Either the PCs can do it with a skill check (possibly with a bonus if they elaborate a bit with good ideas), or they fail.

You might call such ideas roleplaying. I wouldn't. More like out of character brainstorming. It's the reason that players come up with ideas on building hot air balloons in fantasy medieval settings.

But one thing that's consistent is that if you take someone who actually knows what they are doing from real life experience, they will almost always roll their eyes at gamers who *think* they know. In fact, it's one of the biggest arguments FOR character skill over player skill system. When you combine this with the second part of your statement, it's no wonder why things like this are just ignored or handwaved away in most games.

Actually, it is a good reason for character skill over player skill.

But the main reason details (accurate or inaccurate ones) are ignored or handwaved away is because it wastes a lot of precious gaming time. I don't want to talk about how to bandage a wound in a game or how to set a fire. That's not the fun part for most players (you might be an exception). It's fun to interact with NPCs, explore the world via DM description and player interaction, and fight enemies.

Going meticulously into details on how to do a variety of skills? Boring at the table. I suspect that it might be less boring for people who are domain experts in those areas, but many gamers could care less about that minutia, or at least a steady diet of it at the table. Do the players really have to describe how they collect wood for the fire for the 30th time? We never do that at our table (unless instigated by a player). We focus on the highlights of the three pillars, not the necessarily background grunt work and details that leads up to those.

 

[The Grassy Gnoll]

Watch Vikings to see how cool hand axes can be.
I know they're not optimal but I always choose flavour over damage. One of my faves was a human Fighter whose main weapon was a quarterstaff. Loved him.
I mean, he died, but while he was around he was Wade Garrett from Road House.