D&D 5E No love for the hand axe?

[KarinsDad]

No, one does not drill a hole for tent stakes. That is fundamentally flawed because in order for a tent stake to work, it has to have tight friction in the ground. For someone with the experience you claim, I wouldn't think I'd have to explain this.

When people need tent stakes in rocky ground, they do this. Heck, the worst thing you can do is plunge your knife in the ground and dig out holes (and rocky ground to boot). I cringe just even thinking about that. What a great way to ruin it. Putting a blade in the ground is a cardinal sin.

Nonsense. In the middle of the night in a torrential rain when the ground is flooding and you didn't think you would need to trench your tent ahead of time and a knife is your only option (or the knife is the first tool you can find in the dark), you'll use the knife to dig the trench. You'll then sharpen the knife later on. Sure, it's great if you brought a trowel for that task and have it at hand. The best tool for the job. And if you have an axe, you might use that. And note: before you post that one always digs a trench around their tent, trust me, it doesn't always happen when you have backpacked 20 miles and are bone tired at the end of the day. In fact, many national parks and such prohibit you from trenching your tent (leave no trace).

As a general rule, I agree with you. Use the knife to carve a digging tool (assuming that you have wood nearby) or pry out a rock and use it. But in an emergency or survival situation or one where other options are not available, yes, I have used my knife to dig. It tends to dull the front part of the blade, but it doesn't ruin it. I suspect that you do not have actual experience with this because the thought of doing so horrifies you.

It's not the first choice, but it is an option. I have also done similar things to what is in that video. I've also tripped over the large rock in my campsite when doing that type of thing. It happens. I've also used a sharp stick and water to bore a hole into the ground to start a hole in hard ground to then pound a larger makeshift stake into. There are a lot of techniques, it just depends on situation. Try using the large rock technique when there are no large rocks nearby, or when you have down to dig down through snow and/or frozen ground to get to them. Don't make assumptions about what your options are.

I was talking about a more emergency/survival situation when using a knife to dig. Frankly, most any tool can be used for a lot of things if one is not in a hurry or have limited options. I've been in several situations where it's getting dark or a sudden storm is coming in, and I got to get a lot of tasks done quickly and I'll sometimes use the fastest but less optimal solution instead of the much better but more time consuming solution. Anyone whose been out in the wilderness knows that crap happens and it happens quickly. Accidents, weather changes, injuries, wild animals, equipment failures. Stuff happens and quite frankly, I have dulled a few knives (even broken a tip off a knife blade, and damaged some other tools and equipment) coming up with a fast makeshift solution. Compared to the alternative, I could give a rats rearend about not using a knife for what it is supposed to be used for.

A lot of tools can be used for a lot of things if one has the time, but when time crunched in an emergency, I just find that a knife has more utility. IME.

Have you ever been cooking breakfast when a bear waltzes into your camp and hovers over your shoulder? That happened to a friend of mine while we were backpacking. Sure, yelling and throwing rocks near bears works fairly well, but trust me, it doesn't work as well when they are pawing through your food supplies. Eventually it'll run away with some of your food, but not necessarily right away. Emergency situations often require alternative approaches. Shouting and throwing rocks did not work for us that time, we finally managed it by pounding a stick on a log, for some reason, the bear didn't like that sound. I've only had two close bear encounters in the wilderness (and one in my backyard in Colorado, fortunately there was a barbed wire fence between us and I just backed away, it never tried to get past the fence). I'm ok with not having another such experience (probably one of the reasons that I've never hunted bear). I even made a serious tactical error with my first bear encounter. My buddy and I were backpacking and a black bear showed up nearby. He started grabbing rocks and shouting, while I tried to grab the camera off his backpack to get a picture. An incredibly stupid thing to do, but I was very young at the time and a lot more inexperienced. I knew to scare the bear away, but I thought at the time that a picture would be great to go with the story.

Personally, I would think that hiking is one of the more dangerous activities because people do not bring a lot of gear when hiking. At least with backpacking, we prepare for many possibilities. I've never done a lot of hiking. In camping situations where one can set up their camp with everything in its place and they can bring a ton of equipment and many of the proper tools, things are different.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Nonsense. In the middle of the night in a torrential rain when the ground is flooding and you didn't think you would need to trench your tent ahead of time and a knife is your only option (or the knife is the first tool you can find in the dark), you'll use the knife to dig the trench. .

Funny enough, this is is what is nonsense. If you are in rocky enough soil that a tent spike can't be driven in, you think you'll wake up in the middle of the night and dig a trench through that with a knife? Absolutely ridiculous proposition. Honestly I think you should just stop, because I think you're digging yourself into a bigger hole (no pun intended).

I do A LOT of bushcrafting. In lots of different climates (Oregon is a wonderful state for this since we have rainforests, grasslands, high desert, coastal, rocky mountains, and temperate deciduous AND coniferous forests all within two hours radius of where I live.) I spend a lot of time with like minded individuals. The minute you take out your knife and thrust it in the dirt to "drill out a hole"? Half of them would think you an incompetent idiot. The other half would probably leap at you to stop you from ruining your knife. And even if for some God knows reasons you had to do that, an axe would still be better to dig a trench than a knife, so your hypothetical doesn't exactly help your argument that a knife is better.

So when you say IME, based on what you have claimed so far, I suspect that "experience" is something you may have seen on a TV show.

 

[KarinsDad]

Funny enough, this is is what is nonsense. If you are in rocky enough soil that a tent spike can't be driven in, you think you'll wake up in the middle of the night and dig a trench through that with a knife? Absolutely ridiculous proposition. Honestly I think you should just stop, because I think you're digging yourself into a bigger hole (no pun intended).

I never made the claim to dig a trench with a knife in rocky soil. In fact, I never claimed to dig a trench with a knife. I said it could be done in an emergency. You are making stuff up.

I do A LOT of bushcrafting. In lots of different climates (Oregon is a wonderful state for this since we have rainforests, grasslands, high desert, coastal, rocky mountains, and temperate deciduous AND coniferous forests all within two hours radius of where I live.) I spend a lot of time with like minded individuals. The minute you take out your knife and thrust it in the dirt to "drill out a hole"? Half of them would think you an incompetent idiot. The other half would probably leap at you to stop you from ruining your knife.

I haven't done a lot of bushcrafting. I've put in maybe 20 weeks in the wilderness total in my life. You probably have more experience than me.

But most of the time, just like you, I would not just willy nilly dig with a knife. But also, there are things called whetstones and there are things called stores.

You seem to be under some weird impression that a knife is a +1 longsword that is non-replaceable and must be never damaged. Sure, a really nice knife with teflon or other coating or features might cost $100 and you might want to keep such a knife in great shape for years (especially if it's one you really like), but most of them I've ever bought were carbon and cost under $15 (course, I bought all of my knives decades ago). When I am out, I prefer to not dull or damage my knife, but unlike you, I don't claim it to be irrational or incompetent if I think the situation warrants. I'm not OCD about it. I've also used a wrench to hammer in a nail in my lifetime. I don't typically do that either. I don't try to damage my tools or use them "improperly", but I'm not going to worry about it if I do, especially in situations where I do not have access to the proper tool or time to fabricate/acquire one. I'll buy a new tool if the one I used gets too damaged. I was never out in the bush for 8 weeks at a time and digging with a knife will not typically ruin it enough for a week long trip. Put some scratches on it. Give it some nicks. Force you to resharpen it. Sure. You are really wrapped around the axle about how you were taught to do things. I've used my knife to take a hot lid off a boiling pot when another utensil or cloth wasn't available. I know at least one person who wouldn't put his knife near heat.

Go read what other people post dig with knife. Yup, most people there who would never use a knife to dig, just like you (and your like minded pals). There are some that have. Are they all incompetent too?

Learn that your experience is not the only one, or that the preferred way to do things is not always the best, especially in an emergency.

So when you say IME, based on what you have claimed so far, I suspect that "experience" is something you may have seen on a TV show.

I'm out of this conversation.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I don't think you ever were part of the conversation, because there's been several times where something you said was already addressed, or you were outright wrong about it, and now you're denying saying things that are quite literally just a couple posts above of you saying it. Throw that on top of what the conversation is actually about (why don't axes get more love in D&D because they are more useful than a knife in a typical D&D setting) and your constant barrage of red herring arguments, and yeah. I'm pretty sure you never were really part of this conversation to begin with.

I'm mean, let's recap shall we? To the question:

In general, to the outdoorsman in the D&D world, I think an axe is better to have than a knife, if you were forced to only have one, right?

You had disagreed (inferring the knife is the better choice) because (some of your reasons):

* you may be on a boat and need to fix an engine, screw in a screw, or pick slivers out
* made claims that you can't do X list of things with an axe when in fact people do, even when they have both a knife and an axe to choose from (and I provided many references of them doing it)
* disregarded environments like woodlands in favor of an environment like being on a boat (which is another odd thing, because I'm pretty sure most D&D parties are in the woods a lot more than they are on a boat)
* disregarded the opinion of (almost 200 voters so far) subject matter experts who do this stuff all the time by citing a fallacy when no such fallacy existed.
* use a knife to drill holes in a rocky ground when you can't put in tent stakes (which is just plain weird because no one actually does that)
* when this is pointed out, you shifted the goal posts to digging a trench in a downpour (which even if people did do that, an axe would be better anyway)
* just buy another one at the store (which makes no sense to the actual original question)

So at this point I'm pretty confident in saying that I don't think you ever were in the conversation.

Look man, you made claims as to why you disagreed with me that are clearly based off ignorance (which happens to everyone), while trying to position yourself as experienced, when clearly that isn't the case. I've provided not only my own expertise and citations of how these tools are used, but even took myself out and fell back upon almost 200 people (so far that have responded) who are also subject matter experts. You keep accusing me of thinking my experience is the only one while at the same time just making scenarios up, which is doubly odd because I'm not going only by my experience but by the experience of the subject matter experts in this field.

You should have stopped digging a long time ago. No pun intended.

 

[bedir than]

So, about handaxes. The party in my game has more players using hand axes than any other melee weapon

 

[Quickleaf]

Are we talking about weapons or tools? They're two different things. An axe is a great tool, but not exactly the perfect weapon.

A hand axe is a great tool, but I think it's actually not a bad weapon.

I can only speak from limited experience training with a tomahawk / hand axe hybrid, but it's fairly light and that notch is great for snaring weapons or wrists. Of course, more experienced Medieval Martial Artists might have a different opinion...

 

[Diamabel]

A hand axe is a great tool, but I think it's actually not a bad weapon.

I can only speak from limited experience training with a tomahawk / hand axe hybrid, but it's fairly light and that notch is great for snaring weapons or wrists. Of course, more experienced Medieval Martial Artists might have a different opinion...

Axes designed as a tool are different than axes designed for fighting.. there is some overlap, but there are significant differences. A fighting axe is fast, agile and well balanced(for combat).. a wood axe really isn't.

 

[Quickleaf]

Axes designed as a tool are different than axes designed for fighting.. there is some overlap, but there are significant differences. A fighting axe is fast, agile and well balanced(for combat).. a wood axe really isn't.

Yeah this was an hand axe my friend helped me make. Wish I still had it, but I gifted it away. I think the design was a hatchet / tomahawk hybrid, so one-handed and fairly light. Mostly I used it for field survival and splitting wood, but my buddy and I did a bit of stick, knife, and tomahawk fighting. I have a martial arts background, but mostly unarmed stuff, so I was a wide-eyed beginner with this stuff. My friend was the expert with survival / military training, and he really opened my eyes about weapons.

I scoured the net for anything that reminded me of the fighting style that developed when we practiced, and this guy's stuff looks pretty close.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I think most people are like this. Even myself most times. And now with cantrips like fire bolt, light, and mending? Kind of makes a lot of these things moot. I think most D&D players look forward to the next combat or next social interaction, and spend little time worrying about exploration outside of basic maps and searching for secret doors/traps. largely, because the DM isn't an expert either, so how would anyone at the table really know the right tools to have? Just easier to assume it's done.

Perhaps what we should do is be more specific. Because, in general, I agree that people lump "anything to do with crawling/surviving a dungeon" in the same category as "anything to do with traversing/surviving the wilderness," and that might be part of the problem. As long as the "survive the world-environment" type stuff is merely a subset of another category, rather than a completely developed category in its own right, it's probably going to get a short shrift.

In the spirit of that, I propose separating delving, which has to do with traps, locks, secret doors, "dungeoneering," and all manner of "survive this hellhole fortress" things, from expedition, which has to do with creating shelter, finding sustenance, logistics, establishing a safe perimeter, and all manner of "make sure the environment doesn't kill you" things.

There are a lot of classes that get "delving" support. Apart from the Ranger and Barbarian (and maybe Rogue), I'm not sure there are classes that get much inherent "expedition" support--though being a full caster goes a long way, because spells can do nearly everything. To the best of my knowledge, "delving" can be supported by a variety of skills, while "expedition" is almost completely siloed into Nature and Survival; similarly, I'm not sure there really are that many tool proficiencies or background benefits that are much use for "expedition," but I could be wrong. I, personally, would like to see all classes have discrete, declarative, non-generic abilities for each pillar, that don't compete for resources with other pillars. I'd like to see items, like the hand axe, which trade a small amount of offense potential for a nice suite of other benefits, such that they'll be a nice balance-point, saving weight while working multiple jobs.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Axes designed as a tool are different than axes designed for fighting.. there is some overlap, but there are significant differences. A fighting axe is fast, agile and well balanced(for combat).. a wood axe really isn't.

For purposes of utility, they can be, and have been, both. I.e., the combat tomahawk here is just as functional as a forest axe in every way, including the hammering side.