D&D 5E No Magic Shops!

[Hussar]

Thank you for - perhaps unwittingly - providing a lot of detail on why updating the d20 rules to 5E is far from trivial, and in fact very hard.

Yes, I absolutely agree Sane's approach is far from perfect; to take only a single example, the price structure of magic weapons translate poorly into 5E, where ANY magic weapon is basically all you ever need. The upgrade from +1 to +2 is minor, since no monster resistances differentiates between the two.

So the old "plus squared x1000" formula doesn't cut it in 5E. And that's just the most basic of assumptions, which gives you an idea of exactly how false the claim "just use d20 prices" some people bandy about really is.

In summary: Sane Magic Prices is a badly leaking band-aid, but still better than nothing (which is still better than the train-wreck that is rarity-based pricing).


Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Actually, I would say that you are very mistaken. The upgrade from +1 to +2 is HUGE in a bounded accuracy system where the PC's almost never gain any bonuses to attack. And, as far as utility goes, a +1 weapon, in a bounded accuracy system, is virtually priceless.

Note, you keep pointing back to 3e. But, 3e PRESUMED that you would have these magic items. The monsters were designed specifically around the idea that you would have a certain level of magic items at a certain character level.

5e doesn't do this. Unlike 3e, a +1 sword in 5e is an actual bonus, not something that's baked right into the math of the game. So, how do you price it?

And I notice you ignored the other points where you are asking for something to support your play style that has never existed in the game in any edition.

 

[Lanefan]

Your solutions in your reply to that post were more or less a 1:1 to what is not a solution for me, i.e. make it up yourself, just reduce money, spend money on castles (not you exact words). I asked Horus, so let me ask you, how would you make treaure worthwhile in a campaign that features almost no downtime ...

Easy. As DM I would add more downtime into the campaign.

 

[Hussar]

Cute.

Let me ask you then. For uptime campaigns, how would you make gold have use? How would you keep the gold-looting part of D&D meaningful for the party? I know you're not really concerned about it, and more power to you, but how would you go about it, keeping treasure worth something. Remember, no downtime

Considering how much people bitch about how fast leveling is, it's really a wonder when you have other people insisting that you have no downtime and must adventure every single second of your character's life or you are wasting time.

And, as far as modules go, if you are incapable of adjusting a module to fit with your play style, then you shouldn't be DMing.

 

[Kobold Boots]

What to use gold for:

1. Upkeep
2. Relations that realize you have money now.
3. Taxation because nobles really like you once they get to know you.
4. Bribes because your enemies like to hire assassins to come get you.
5. Tithes because your gods, though immortal and without peer, have an odd need for coin.
6. Armies so you can hold on to your stuff when Tiamat shows up.
7. Castles so you have a place to camp your army
8. Patronage so you have artisans to help decorate the castle
9. Retainers so you have a sure supply of red shirts to carry the one ring into the lava.
10. Dowries so your character can eventually get married to someone other than the village courtesan
11. Courtesans so they don't stick around to become your wife or husband.
12. The occasional magic item swap when it's not item for item (speaking only of my own setting)
13. Feasts when the king shows up with his 100 retainers.
14. Tournaments when said king needs to remember how capable you are.
15. More feasts when the tournaments result in 12 nobles showing up with the small village of 500 retainers.

I could go on and on and on. It's not like the economy lives inside an equipment and magic item vacuum. Thread is a bit narrow in scope as it pertains to gold use. Especially true when folks complaining about what to use gold for may be very much into the roleplaying aspects of a medieval fantasy setting.

Characters gain power, power attracts wealth. Wealth and power attract people that want to take that wealth and power. The more dangerous people do it under the auspices of law.

Be well
KB

 

[Hussar]

/snip

But that's a totally artificial constraint. Downtime exists. If you don't use it in your game that's not really a valid basis for complaining about other rules. It reminds me of the Warlord debate:

"Warlords need to heal because all other healing is magical."
"But...but...it's a game about worlds that have magic."
"Yeah but we don't use magic in our game."
"..."
/snip

There is a significant difference thought that you are ignoring.

Non-magical healing WAS directly supported in one edition and exists in 5e. We aren't asking for anything new, nor are we asking for something to be added to the game which would radically alter every single aspect of the game.

Utility based pricing never existed in any edition of the game. 3e price lists were based on campaign expectations and were part of the CR-Wealth by Level system where monsters were built on the expectation that the party would have certain magic items at certain levels.

What's being asked for here, a utility based magic item price list has never actually existed in the game, and adding it to 5e would require that monster design take into account that the PC's would be expected to have certain items by certain wealth levels. IOW, pretty much a complete rewrite of the game to emulate the treadmill of 3e/Pathfinder.

And, let's not forget, we DO have a magic item price list in the game. It might not be based on utility, but, it is there. Additionally, we now have the rules in Xanathar's (why the hell did my autocorrect change that to Xanabars?) for how we can use the DMG prices in game and allow the players to buy magic items without breaking the system - randomly determined magic items based on the players spending in game time to track them down.

Now, people might not like that system. Fair enough. But, it doesn't mean that no system exists for buying magic items. The system is there. However, [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] is asking for a system that has never existed in any edition of the game which would require a complete overhaul of the entire game on the DM's side in order to incorporate into the game. It's not really a big shock that WotC seems to be taking its time creating such a system.

 

[MoonSong]

Actually, I would say that you are very mistaken. The upgrade from +1 to +2 is HUGE in a bounded accuracy system where the PC's almost never gain any bonuses to attack. And, as far as utility goes, a +1 weapon, in a bounded accuracy system, is virtually priceless.

Note, you keep pointing back to 3e. But, 3e PRESUMED that you would have these magic items. The monsters were designed specifically around the idea that you would have a certain level of magic items at a certain character level.

5e doesn't do this. Unlike 3e, a +1 sword in 5e is an actual bonus, not something that's baked right into the math of the game. So, how do you price it?

And I notice you ignored the other points where you are asking for something to support your play style that has never existed in the game in any edition.

No matter how "special" a +1 might be by its rarity, it is still boring.

 

[ad_hoc]

I'm not. It was a suggestion, not an assumption.

The first time you find a sword +1, it's a cool find. After years of play and several characters/campaigns, it just doesn't have that wow factor. It's still a desirable item, because of its obvious utility, but it's not going to impress them.

If you want the sword +1 to retain it's "wow", you probably need to play with new players. That's the only way to keep having that first time.

You say you aren't assuming things, but you then go on to assume that only new players are wowed by +1 items a couple sentences later. How can you not see that?

Some of the players at my table have been playing for quite a bit of time (not a long time by D&D standards but still 10-15 years or so). We are wowed by +1 items in 5e. You don't get to say otherwise.

I doubt they would be that wowed or impressed by an axe that does +1d6 to plants though.

 

[Maxperson]

(Ironically, I believe @Maxperson does in fact expect them to be surprised, based on opinions he has expressed in threads about metagaming.)

Hah! You know that isn't true. I've never said I don't expect the players not to know about troll fire vulnerability. I've said repeatedly that I expect them to roleplay properly when their PCs don't know.

 

[Maxperson]

Ah, so WotC gave us rules for this then. No, they didn't, so the DM has to come up with something for this as well, which is one of the issues I have. If WotC tells you to hand out vast amounts of money, thay should also provide DM support when the players wants to use said money. The support so far is woefully lacking.

Do you expect them to tell you what your NPCs should say? Do you expect them to create your encounters for you? D&D is about the DMs creating within the framework provided. Expecting them to create prices(which 3e showed they do a piss poor job at anyway) for you seems lazy to me. It's not hard to just come up with a number that seems reasonable to you. It takes like 2 seconds, literally.

If the whole purpose is a money sink, why hand out the money in the first place?

That's all treasure has ever been. You find it, and then spend it on some money sink or other. Magic items, castle building, training costs and every other cost is nothing but a way to spend(money sink) the coin the party finds.

 

[MechaPilot]

I doubt they would be that wowed or impressed by an axe that does +1d6 to plants though.

Right there. That's the part that proves you don't understand what I mean by a magic item being special. It's not just that it does +1d6 to plant creatures (and also to elves and fey). It's that the item has character. The bonus given by the item is evocative of the weapon, its history and its place in the game world. Combine that with a benefit that doesn't just fade into the mathematical background noise of bonuses listed on your character sheet, and you have what makes a magic item special to me.