D&D (2024) Bastion rules: every pub owner is at least 13th level

Chaosmancer

Legend
Because the gold prices get too high man. I don't want to be tracking hundreds or thousands of gold income from several different buildings when I could just have 1d4 points, total them up to like maybe 20 points total and see what I want to do. And I don't want to crunch math on how to maximize huge amounts of gold when I can just use the metacurrency to do it. Furthermore, I think that since D&D has now moved far away from the old days of relying on a lot of gold, it makes more sense to rely on metacurrencies for things like this.

If it was just spend gold on a big fancy building and that was it, it'd be good. But if I have to keep track of gold going in and gold going out, I'm basically playing landlord + real estate agent and that is NOT what I want to be doing.

On top of all that, given how absolutely stupid most things are in terms of prices (for gold), it just introduces a lot of complicated math when I'm trying to figure out how much to pay the people living in my bastion. Every time my bastion increases I now have to update my huge amount of gold merchant spreadsheets to account for new workers. It sounds like the complete opposite of fun, and it sounds very time consuming. And, since a lot of currency at higher levels is earned through gems and art pieces, I have to then go through selling that, negotiating all of it, totaling up the gold, deciding how much gold goes to my basic living expenses, how much I'm using on equipment, how much I'm using on Bastions, how much I'm paying my employees. Making this system gold just adds SO MUCH.

Bastion points are you roll a die, save or spend the result. Easy. Streamlined. That takes a few seconds to do and lets me then focus my brainspace on the more enjoyable details of the Bastion System.

I just imagine a gold-based Bastion-system requiring a Bastion Turn be an entire session where we're all busting out calculators on our phones and doing longform math. That is, for me, the complete opposite of fun.

Now if I'm being fully honest, I don't think gold OR Bastion Points are necessary. I think there should just be a Bastion Check and different buildings have different modifiers. You choose which checks you want to make, roll them, and reference the individual buildings to see what your check can get you this turn. You could use a CLock system for long projects, like magic items and building defensive walls, and checks can take one or more segments off of the clock. This streamlines the system into an appropriate 5E game IMO, removing any and all bookkeeping.

Why would you have to calculate paying your workers? You don't calculate that now.

I mean, sure, the gold numbers would be higher, but I don't see having five buildings giving you a total of 625 gp to be much different than rolling 2d4, 3d6 and a 1d8 to add together and save the points towards an item.

Personally, my main issue with the Bastion Points is the name is stupid. It should be called Influence, because that's the entirety of what it really is, but if we went gold, I don't see it being any different than it is now. Heck, right now I need to spend 200 gold in the smithy to make a 400 gold suit of armor AND generate 1d4 BP that are added to my pool of BP. You are tracking gold going in and out anyways.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
They've said that in AL any updated rules in 2024 have to be used, so the old 2014(edition, not year) Xanathar's rules would be replaced by the new Bastion crafting. That and we don't know for sure that they aren't going to apply generally. WotC might apply that rule across the board.

What are you talking about?

I'm not speaking about Adventurer's League at all. Secondly, Bastion rules don't replace the other downtime rules, they are a new system. Otherwise you can't have any downtime, crafting, or anything else until 5th level. That's nonsensical.

And, since the Bastion is optional, it won't be applied across the board, because it is an optional rule-set for having a homebase, not a rule set for how all research, crafting, jobs, and carousing are done.
 

Horwath

Legend
I really hope the designers find enough room in the DMG to include both an expanded version of the (gold-based) Stronghold rules from the 2014 DMG and an expanded version of the (abstract-currency) Bastion rules from UA. Then tables could pick whichever of the two rules modules works best for their play style. Bonus points if the designers find a way for the two modules to work together if a table chooses to use both at the same time.
Yes, we really need people to waste their time and page count on two systems when one does the job perfectly.

the moment they added that you can get advantage on BP generation with spending 25GP on it they put the equation in BP=xGP.
And the X is about 28 GP
 



An easy solution would be giving a monetary value to Build Points (1 BP = x gp).
Based on the current rules, the GP equivalent for Bastion Points varies wildly.

If you extract the value for GP from how many additional points you get when you pay for advantage, it varies from 40 GP per BP for 1d4 (level 5 facilities, or maintenance), to 26 GP/BP for 1d6 (level 9 facilities) to 19 for 1d8 (level 13 facilities) to 15 for 1d10 (level 17 facilities). So the higher the level, the less gold is needed to generate BP (and thus the less GP each BP is worth).

If you extract it from the cost of magic items you can buy, it varies from 3-5 GP/BP for common magic items, to 2-8 GP/BP for uncommon magic items, to 2-20 GP/BP for rare magic items, to 15-143 GP/BP for very rare magic items, to 72-715+ for legendary magic items. So the higher the level, the more gold each BP is worth in purchasing power.
 


Epic Meepo

Adventurer
Yes, we really need people to waste their time and page count on two systems when one does the job perfectly.
Since one of the stated goals of the 2024 DMG is to teach new DMs how to run the game, I would say, yes, designers really should spend time and page count on a few examples of both gamist and simulationist approaches to the same problem.
 

I've been considering a big campaign game I played a while back. Early in the adventure (around level 1 or 2) we acquired a house for the party to stay at. This was provided by the DM himself, since the module didn't provide any common living area for the party, despite the vast majority of the adventure taking place in one city.

Anyway, I'd somewhat considered it in terms of a Bastion, but forgot that it could be built as a combined Bastion. There's been tons of analysis posted in the last few weeks, but almost all of it seems to consider things only from the perspective of a single player, and I'd gotten into that mindset myself.

So, the abandoned house that we took over had a large living room, a kitchen and dining room, a few bedrooms upstairs, a back yard, and a basement for storage (which we later found also had a secret entrance into the city's sewer system). Fitting it all together, we could have constructed that with four of the player characters.

Roomy: Living room, main bedroom, basement, back yard.
Cramped: Kitchen, dining room, two small bedrooms

There was no washroom. We had a tub out back we used to scrub down in. It was in a poor neighborhood in the city, a bit above outright slums. No walls or guards or whatever, and of course we never built it up with stuff like this Bastion system. However at its base, the party could have created this with the proposed system.

As I said, we got this around level 1 or 2. There is no reason to gate access to basic facilities, and with characters combining their free rooms, it's relatively easy to make a useful residence or similar gathering spot for the party for your early levels.

This could easily be done as an old theater (bard party), a startup thieves' guild, a trade warehouse, a rickety ship, or various other constructs that provide common ground for further development. And I think it's only later levels where the party is more likely to split up into individual Bastions, such as a wizard's tower or a knight's keep or whatever.

So rather than think of the combined Bastion as a secondary option, what about approaching it as the primary option?

So, a party of four or five, with four contributing to the combined Bastion, has some sort of residence built up in the early levels, and at level 5 is allowed two special facilities each. What does that look like? Assuming a party of four...

Level 5

Garden x2, Library, Sanctuary, Storehouse, Workshop, Smithy, Barracks

Suddenly it's not a strain to build something expansive the way it is for a single character.

GP earned per week: 80 (assumes one garden makes Potions of Healing while the other makes stuff to sell)

BP earned per week: 20 (no real value in paying for advantage at this point)

You could get one common magic item each week, giving the entire party one common item within one level, with BP left over. You could get a couople uncommon magic items per level, giving the party one uncommon magic item each over about 2 levels.

Level 9

Greenhouse, Laboratory, Sacristy, Scriptorium, Teleportation Circle, Trophy Room, Training Area, Stable

Convert one Garden to a second Storehouse. Enlarge the other Garden. (Pays for itself in a couple levels.)

GP earned per week: 500 (Greenhouse makes potions, so the Garden focuses on money)

BP earned per week: 48 (or 56 if you spend 200 GP on the 1d6 facilities)

You could get one rare magic item every 5 weeks, or 3 rare items every 2 levels for the party.

Level 13

Archive (enlarge), Meditation Chamber, Pub (enlarge), Reliquary

GP earned per week: 3850 GP (double action on improved Storehouse)

BP earned per week: 66 (or 85 if you spend 500 GP on advantage on the rolls)

This would allow one uncommon magic item every week, one rare magic item every 3 weeks, or one very rare magic item every 4 weeks. The party could get one very rare magic item each over a couple levels.

Level 17

Demiplane, Guildhall, Sanctum, War Room

GP earned per week: 8100 (improved Storehouse, Guildhall likely provides 500 GP)

BP earned per week: 88 (or 117 if you spend 600 GP on advantage on the rolls)

That would take 2 weeks for a rare magic item, 3 weeks for a very rare magic item, or 6 weeks for a legendary magic item. All four party members should have a legendary magic item by level 20.

--

Overall, it looks like a party of 4 that built a combined Bastion would be able to get one instance of the best magic item at each tier within about 2 levels of reaching that tier. (This will likely be slower in practice due to having to use Maintain orders some of the time.)

A decent amount of money can also be made — an overall improvement for the party of between 5% and 25%, depending on level and tier. Of course you're also giving more ways to spend it.

When viewed as a collective party project, this feels like it works a lot better than how I viewed it previously.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
When viewed as a collective party project, this feels like it works a lot better than how I viewed it previously.

I agree, and I think this is how it was designed originally. Things like the Barracks make far more sense when you can defend 7 facilities instead of one. Additionally, as you point out, pooling your resources can make things happen much faster at a party level.

I do want to focus on this at an individual level though. For a few reasons.

1) While it is easy to do in some groups, in others a combined bastion would be bizarre. I'm playing a conman in one game, and in my party is a paladin nobleman, setting up my shady shop and potential smuggling operation literally next door to a defender of the city who is running the police is... a poor choice. Or what if you have a ranger or a druid who would logically want to have their bastion far away from civilization, while the Bard would want theirs in the middle of town?

2) There is actually no rule for combining Bastion Points. It states that combining Bastions does not change how those facilities work, meaning you still earn everything separately. Per RAW, the only thing that combining Bastions does, is change how defenders work.

3) If we can get it to work on an individual level, then it will work on a combined level. But if it only works when combined, then it is busted if people try to go individual.


Still, I largely agree with your analysis that the system does function far better if you combine the Bastions and pool all the resources.
 

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