D&D (2024) Bastion rules: every pub owner is at least 13th level

Epic Meepo

Adventurer
This whole thread is based on a willful refusal to understand a very simple idea, and purposefully interpret it in a nonsensical way that is disconnected from what it actually does.
I can't speak for the whole thread, but my OP is based on a willful refusal to accept naming conventions that are divorced from reality (including both real-world and in-game reality). I stand by my opinion that priceless, level-gated special facilities shouldn't share names with generic, everyday structures anyone can build.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I can't speak for the whole thread, but my OP is based on a willful refusal to accept naming conventions that are divorced from reality (including both real-world and in-game reality). I stand by my opinion that priceless, level-gated special facilities shouldn't share names with generic, everyday structures anyone can build.
I mean, that isn’t the complaint made in the OP, but sure we can play with this goalpost instead.

This one sentence from the new Bastion rules guarantees those rules will never see use in my game: "Unlike basic facilities, special facilities can’t be bought; a character gains them through level advancement." Note that "special facilities" include Stables (minimum character level 9th) and Pubs (minimum character level 13th). So why can't my 8th-level character with 10,000 gp build Stables? I can't think of any reasonable in-game explanation. Some sort of multiverse-wide zoning restriction, maybe?
Or, it’s just referring to the advanced facilities in the bastion rules, and it’s nonsensical to be this sarcastically pedantic about it.
The real answer is that Stables provide arbitrary in-game mechanical benefits not appropriate for characters below 9th-level. Stables generate Bastion Points, or BP (not to be confused with the BP you use to build things in Paizo's Kingmaker adventure path). For various implausible reasons, characters can use BP to acquire magic items. Apparently, Stables (with a capitol "S") are some sort of magical Platonic object which exist beyond the confines of Euclidean geometry and in-game economics.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand that D&D rules aren't designed to model any sort of economy in a realistic way. In-game transactions are just abstractions designed to make for entertaining game-play. That being said, I do at least expect there to be some sort of in-game currency which characters can use to purchase or build everyday objects like stables and pubs. In my humble opinion, Stables and Pubs shouldn't be de facto magic items which exist outside the gold-piece economy.
Great! There is! This doesn’t interfere with that in any way. 👍👍
 

Epic Meepo

Adventurer
I mean, that isn’t the complaint made in the OP, but sure we can play with this goalpost instead.
That's literally the complaint I made in the concluding sentence of the OP. You just quoted it for me: "Stables and Pubs shouldn't be de facto magic items which exist outside the gold-piece economy."

As in, "Things named for everyday objects [Stables and Pubs] shouldn't be priceless, level-gated rules objects [de facto magic items]." In my headspace, that's the same goalpost, implied in the first case and explicitly stated in the second.

However, it would appear I failed to clearly communicate that point. I suppose I spent too much effort being flippant, on the off chance someone would find my post as fun to read as it was to write. Based on some responses in this thread, I can see my strategy of writing something for my own enjoyment was not fully conducive to community discussion. I might have better conveyed my point by writing a serious dissertation.

In an effort to expunge any unnecessary sarcastic pedantry, I submit the following sentence-by-sentence revision of the OP using only dry language which, with any luck, better conveys the points I was attempting to make:

Something I dislike about the Bastion rules: special facilities can't be purchased; characters gain them through level advancement. Special facilities include Stables and Pubs. My character of insufficient level can't build Stables with any arbitrarily large amount of gold. I can think of no reasonable in-game justification for this restriction. Any in-game justification I can think of for the existence of priceless Stables would sound absurd.

This situation exists because special facilities like Stables provide mechanical benefits not appropriate for low-level characters. Stables provide Bastion Points. Those Points can be used to purchase magic items. As a result, Stables (with a capitol "S") possess an attribute not possessed by everyday objects that can be built or purchased with gold.

I know the D&D rules don't accurately model economics. In-game transactions are abstractions. However, at a minimum, I would expect rules for currency that can be used to purchase everyday objects like stables and pubs. In my opinion, Stables and Pubs [used here as a stand-in for all rules objects named after everyday things] shouldn't be priceless the way magic items are priceless.
 
Last edited:

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
That's literally the complaint I made in the concluding sentence of the OP. You just quoted it for me: "Stables and Pubs shouldn't be de facto magic items which exist outside the gold-piece economy."

As in, "Things named for everyday objects [Stables and Pubs] shouldn't be priceless, level-gated rules objects [de facto magic items]." In my headspace, that's the same goalpost, implied in the first case and explicitly stated in the second.
Okay, but outside your headspace, it is two different complaints.
However, it would appear I failed to clearly communicate that point. I suppose I spent too much effort being flippant, on the off chance someone would find my post as fun to read as it was to write. Based on some responses in this thread, I can see my strategy of writing something for my own enjoyment was not fully conducive to community discussion. I might have better conveyed my point by writing a serious dissertation.
Tbh I find that snarky wit followed by a fairly simple clarification is usually more than enough.
In an effort to expunge any unnecessary sarcastic pedantry, I submit the following sentence-by-sentence revision of the OP using only dry language which, with any luck, better conveys the points I was attempting to make:

"Original Post: 1st Revision"]Something I dislike about the Bastion rules: special facilities can't be purchased; characters gain them through level advancement. Special facilities include Stables and Pubs. My character of insufficient level can't build Stables with any arbitrarily large amount of gold. I can think of no reasonable in-game justification for this restriction. Any in-game justification I can think of for the existence of priceless Stables would sound absurd.
Okay. Stated dryly, this still isn’t true, nor is it a complaint about nomenclature. You are falsely claiming that the PCs cannot build or purchase stables with gold. They can. Simple as that.

They cannot gain the benefits of the bastion system for having a stable attached to thier bastion until the listed level.

These are two entirely different circumstances. You may as well be claiming that your PC can’t buy a sword, because the DM decides if you find magic swords. It’s clearly absurd and false.
This situation exists because special facilities like Stables provide mechanical benefits not appropriate for low-level characters. Stables provide Bastion Points. Those Points can be used to purchase magic items. As a result, Stables (with a capitol "S") possess an attribute not possessed by everyday objects that can be built or purchased with gold.
Only here do you even allude to nomenclature as the problem, and it still comes across as missing the point of what was proposed.
I know the D&D rules don't accurately model economics. In-game transactions are abstractions. However, at a minimum, I would expect rules for currency that can be used to purchase everyday objects like stables and pubs. In my opinion, Stables and Pubs [used here as a stand-in for all rules objects named after everyday things] shouldn't be priceless the way magic items are priceless.
And we are back to the complaint based on a false understanding of the UA.

Stables and pubs, again, can be purchased with gold. Stables and pubs aren’t priceless the way magic items are priceless. In fact they’ve said that magic items will have listed costs in the DMG, so even they aren’t priceless like magic items are priceless.

So the only part of this that is even based in some kind of fact, can be solved by…calling them a Grand Stable and a Heroe’s Pub. 🤷‍♂️
 


Epic Meepo

Adventurer
Stables and pubs, again, can be purchased with gold.
Thank you for making my point for me.

Buildings called stables (lower-case s) and pubs (lower-case s) can be purchased with gold. Special facilities called Stables (capital S) and Pubs (capital P) explicitly can't be purchased with gold, per the UA. That language is the problem I was calling out. That's what's so farcical I can't take the rules as written in the UA seriously.

I can't make a factual statement about Stables (capital S) without posters mistakenly thinking I'm talking about stables (lower-case S). That's how muddled conversation can become when things called Stables (capital S) in the Bastion rules are defined as having properties not possessed by stables (lower-case s).

And yes, I agree with the post many pages ago saying Stables (capital S) should have their name changed to something other than just plain old Stables. That's a good solution to the problem. If that solution had been implemented in the UA, there would be no reason for this thread to exist. Since it isn't yet implemented, I stand by my critique.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Thank you for making my point for me.

Buildings called stables (lower-case s) and pubs (lower-case s) can be purchased with gold. Special facilities called Stables (capital S) and Pubs (capital P) explicitly can't be purchased with gold, per the UA. That language is the problem I was calling out. That's what's so farcical I can't take the rules as written in the UA seriously.
That’s on you, not the UA.
I can't make a factual statement about Stables (capital S) without posters mistakenly thinking I'm talking about stables (lower-case S). That's how muddled conversation can become when things called Stables (capital S) in the Bastion rules are defined as having properties not possessed by stables (lower-case s).
So you’re still intentionally using language that points in a different direction from your “intended meaning”. Oof.

It’s literally trivial to just say bastion stable. It’s one additional word.
And yes, I agree with the post many pages ago saying Stables (capital S) should have their name changed to something other than just plain old Stables. That's a good solution to the problem. If that solution had been implemented in the UA, there would be no reason for this thread to exist. Since it isn't yet implemented, I stand by my critique.
Your critique is just absurd pedantry.
 

Epic Meepo

Adventurer
That’s on you, not the UA.
Of course my reaction to what I read is on me. Every reader's reaction to what they read is on them.

So you’re still intentionally using language that points in a different direction from your “intended meaning”. Oof.
I'm intentionally using rules terminology copied-and-pasted from the UA, verbatim, to demonstrate how misleading that terminology is when used in a sentence.

The fact that we're ten pages into this thread and posters are still getting confused about what I'm talking about when I say Stables is evidence that Stables probably isn't the most intuitive name for the rules object I'm referencing in the manner prescribed by the UA. That's why I believe the terminology in question (Stables, Pubs, etc.) shouldn't be paired with the proposed Bastion rules (priceless, level-gated rewards).

It’s literally trivial to just say bastion stable. It’s one additional word.
I agree. I intend to make a suggestion similar to that in the relevant playtest survey.

Your critique is just absurd pedantry.
I would dispute this point, but that would just be absurd and pedantic.
 
Last edited:


Remove ads

Top