D&D (2024) Bastion rules: every pub owner is at least 13th level

[Maxperson]

I can't speak for the whole thread, but my OP is based on a willful refusal to accept naming conventions that are divorced from reality (including both real-world and in-game reality). I stand by my opinion that priceless, level-gated special facilities shouldn't share names with generic, everyday structures anyone can build.

So you're saying that companies shouldn't be allowed to offer credit cards(pubs) with rewards/miles(special ability), because there are things with the same name(credit cards) that do not offer those things? That would be divorced from reality, right? I mean, we have credit cards and Credit Cards.

 

[Epic Meepo]

So you're saying that companies shouldn't be allowed to offer credit cards(pubs) with rewards/miles(special ability), because there are things with the same name(credit cards) that do not offer those things? That would be divorced from reality, right? I mean, we have credit cards and Credit Cards.

I'm saying a credit card company shouldn't be allowed to trademark "Credit Card" as the name of their credit card with rewards. Their credit card with rewards should have a distinctive name that isn't just "Credit Card" (though it could certainly include the words "credit card" as part of its name, since it belongs to that product category).

Also, if an ad agency tried to convince me it would be a good idea to bring a credit card called "Credit Card" to market, I would question their ability to produce ad campaigns grounded in reality. Trying to use the name of an established product category as the name of a specific product in that category is a completely unrealistic marketing tactic.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm saying a credit card company shouldn't be allowed to trademark "Credit Card" as the name of their credit card with rewards. Their credit card with rewards should have a distinctive name that isn't just "Credit Card" (though it could certainly include the words "credit card" as part of its name, since it belongs to that product category).

So if we call the non-bastion pub, Musso and Frank(great place by the way) and the bastion pub McAnally's Pub giving them both distinctive names, that would be okay? Both are pubs(credit cards) and both have distinctive names that aren't "pub."

 

[Cadence]

It feels like when a player asks another player what they have they would say "I have a bastion pub!!". When later asked where they should meet they would simply call it their "pub". It feels similar to how one would refer to their (magic) sword to me. Using a distinction - capital letter - for a social games when that distinction only works in print seems silly.

 

[bedir than]

Which pub do you want to go to?

The one with the free flowing magic juice

 

[Epic Meepo]

So if we call the non-bastion pub, Musso and Frank(great place by the way) and the bastion pub McAnally's Pub giving them both distinctive names, that would be okay? Both are pubs(credit cards) and both have distinctive names that aren't "pub."

Those would be great names for the as-yet-unreleased Franchise rules. I can't wait to add 5th-level Musso and Frank branding to the Franchise Location I've been building in the background for four levels now.

But if we're going to pretend we can only use proper nouns because no other distinctive names for things could possibly exist, I insist that non-goblin Humanoids and goblins henceforth be known as Bob and Alice.

Or we could just use category names and subcategory names, like pub (a particular type of building anyone can buy) and McAnally's Pub (a subcategory of pub that has additional properties not shared by all pubs).

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, I just ended up finishing the survey for the Bastion rules, and that led me to realizing that... some of them make you WORSE at doing the thing you are trying to do.

By a lot.

Let's take the Smithy. At 5th level, you can choose to get a smithy, and this allows you to make weapons and armor. You can do the following:

• 7 days --> Create 20 pieces of ammunition or one simple weapon at half cost. Make ONE of the following at half cost: 20 Caltrops, a Chain (10feet), a Crowbar, a Grappling Hook, a Hammer (regular or sledge), 4 horseshoes, a Hunting Trap, a set of Manacles, a Miner’s Pick, 10 Iron Spikes or Pitons, an Iron Pot, a metal Shield, or a Shovel.
• 14 days --> Make a martial weapon at half cost or make a Masterwork simple weapon for 800 gp
• 21 days --> Make a suit of medium or heavy armor, or a Masterwork Martial weapon for 800 gp

Hey, here's something fun. Ever heard of Xanathar's? The Crafting rules in Xanathar's says that if you borrow a forge from someone you can craft 50 gp of items in a five day workweek. That week you spend ordering your people to make 10 ft of chain? In that same week you could make EVERYTHING from that week list including the simple weapon and the ammo. What about Martial weapons? Literally any of them in the work week, and actually multiple of them depending (can only make one greatsword, but you can make 10 shortswords). Oh, also? Chain Shirt, Scale Mail, and Ring mail only take a week, with Chain Mail taking a week and half. Literally twice as fast as the Smithy.

Now, it COULD be useful for making Breastplate, halfplate, splint or full plate, as those do actually take longer, but that is literally it.

Well, what about the Masterwork weapons? Those can be turned into magic items with a spell, so that has to be worth it right? Actually... no. See, not only is the Masterwork not a magical weapon, but needs a spell to make it one, but it only becomes a +1 Weapon. A +1 Weapon is an uncommon magic item, which means if you look in the current DMG it is worth between 100 and 500 gold. So why in the WORLD are you being charged 800 gold for a proto-magical weapon? It should be like 100 gold max.

And this continues into the Potion making Lab and the Scroll making scriptorium. Here are the prices from the DMG next to the prices from the Bastion rules

DMG	Bastion
25 - 50	50
50 - 250	200
250 - 2,500	2,000
2,500 - 25,000	20,000
25,000+	100,000

At every single turn, the Bastion rules are charging in the top percentage, regardless of the actual item you are making, until you get to the Legendary options which are four times more than the standard price.

It is ludicrous

 

[Zaukrie]

So, I just ended up finishing the survey for the Bastion rules, and that led me to realizing that... some of them make you WORSE at doing the thing you are trying to do.

By a lot.

Let's take the Smithy. At 5th level, you can choose to get a smithy, and this allows you to make weapons and armor. You can do the following:

• 7 days --> Create 20 pieces of ammunition or one simple weapon at half cost. Make ONE of the following at half cost: 20 Caltrops, a Chain (10feet), a Crowbar, a Grappling Hook, a Hammer (regular or sledge), 4 horseshoes, a Hunting Trap, a set of Manacles, a Miner’s Pick, 10 Iron Spikes or Pitons, an Iron Pot, a metal Shield, or a Shovel.
• 14 days --> Make a martial weapon at half cost or make a Masterwork simple weapon for 800 gp
• 21 days --> Make a suit of medium or heavy armor, or a Masterwork Martial weapon for 800 gp

Hey, here's something fun. Ever heard of Xanathar's? The Crafting rules in Xanathar's says that if you borrow a forge from someone you can craft 50 gp of items in a five day workweek. That week you spend ordering your people to make 10 ft of chain? In that same week you could make EVERYTHING from that week list including the simple weapon and the ammo. What about Martial weapons? Literally any of them in the work week, and actually multiple of them depending (can only make one greatsword, but you can make 10 shortswords). Oh, also? Chain Shirt, Scale Mail, and Ring mail only take a week, with Chain Mail taking a week and half. Literally twice as fast as the Smithy.

Now, it COULD be useful for making Breastplate, halfplate, splint or full plate, as those do actually take longer, but that is literally it.

Well, what about the Masterwork weapons? Those can be turned into magic items with a spell, so that has to be worth it right? Actually... no. See, not only is the Masterwork not a magical weapon, but needs a spell to make it one, but it only becomes a +1 Weapon. A +1 Weapon is an uncommon magic item, which means if you look in the current DMG it is worth between 100 and 500 gold. So why in the WORLD are you being charged 800 gold for a proto-magical weapon? It should be like 100 gold max.

And this continues into the Potion making Lab and the Scroll making scriptorium. Here are the prices from the DMG next to the prices from the Bastion rules

DMG	Bastion
25 - 50	50
50 - 250	200
250 - 2,500	2,000
2,500 - 25,000	20,000
25,000+	100,000

At every single turn, the Bastion rules are charging in the top percentage, regardless of the actual item you are making, until you get to the Legendary options which are four times more than the standard price.

It is ludicrous

Great points

 

[Arilyn]

And I'm sure players with proficiency in Blacksmith tools are going to ask if they can make a MW weapon, and get a spellcaster to cast magic weapon on it, and Voila, a +1 weapon! If the answer is you need a special in a bastion, well that opens up a whole new line of potentially awkward questions.

The whole system feels like a worker placement game. I'm picturing a tray of meeples, players with their bastion mats, collecting resources, and swapping meeples in and out.

 

[Shardstone]

I want Bastion Points to remain. What makes this system fun, in part at least, is the game-like aspects. Making it just a gold merchant simulator is boring and I really don't want to make spreadsheets to count all my different incomes and have to worry about taxes and jesus christ I do not want to do accounting in this game. Give me Bastion Points. Please.