D&D 4E Obligatory dump stats in 4e: the irrelevance of Intelligence

[The Sword 88]

INT really needs a 2nd bonus since it is opposed to DEX which does provide a bonus to ranged attack rolls.

STR and CON are opposed and each provides benefits other than saves

WIS and CHA are opposed and each provides no real benefit other than the saves and skill governing.

So out o fthe three pairs two pairs are equal while DEX has a clear advantage over INT.

 

[Cadfan]

Are there any classes likely to have a bonus in Int which do not have some other, better way of attacking at range?

Fighters have their heavy thrown weapons, which use Str.
Rogues are Dex heavy already.
Rangers are Dex heavy already.
Clerics have ranged spells based on Wis.
Warlocks are ranged combatants.
Wizards are ranged combatants.
Paladins have heavy thrown weapons again.
So do Warlords.

So...

 

[see]

(how many monsters actually attack fortitude at range as well?)

Well, not counting stuff with range of 4 or less (most close bursts, reach, etc.), secondary attacks, and other miscellanea . . . around five dozen.

Abomination, Phane
Basilisk
Beholder
Bodak
Cyclops, Storm Shaman
Demon, Glabrezu
Destrachan
Devil, Ice Devil
Devourer, Spirit Devourer
Dragon, Green (all sizes)
Dragon, White, Elder & Ancient
Drow, Arachnomancer
Eldadrin, Bralani of Autumn Winds
Elemental, Earthwind Ravager
Ettin, Spirit-Talker
Foulspawn, Seer
Galeb Duhr, Rockcaller
Giant, Death Titan
Gibbering Beast, Gibbering Orb
Githyanki, Warrior
Githzerai, Zerth and Mindmage
Gnome, Arcanist
Goblin, Hexer
Hobgoblin, Warcaster
Gorgon, Storm
Hag, Howling
Human, Mage
Kruthik, Hive Lord
Kuo-toa, Whip
Lamia
Lich, Human Wizard and Eladrin Wizard
Lizardfolk, Greenscale Marsh Mystic
Marut, Concordant
Medusa, Archer and Shroud of Zehir
Mummy, Lord (Human Cleric)
Naga, Guardian and Primordial
Nightwalker
Oni, Oni Mage
Orcus, himself plus Deathpriest Hierophant
Rot Harbringer, Slinger
Skull Lord
Slaad, Gray and Red
Specter, Voidsoul
Spider, Demonweb Terror
Troglodyte, Curse Chanter
Vine Horror, Spellfiend
Wight, Battle, Battle Commander, Slaughter
Wyvern, Fell
Yuan-Ti, Malison Incanter

 

[Zinovia]

Wow. He counted them. I'd have thought the question was a bit rhetorical myself. Apparently we have our answer.

As to Int being a dump stat, it does seem to be for certain classes. I want to play with the RAW a bit before house-ruling in changes, even though adding +1 to a number of skills based on your Int bonus appeals to me. Should that be any skills? Trained skills as well, or only untrained skills, to represent things in which you may have "dabbled"?

I'm still planning on adding something for secondary skills in my game (presuming I can ever get it off the ground), and may use Int for that. I'll have to read more before I know what kind of impact that may have.

In general I like the fact that there *are* stats you can safely dump a bit for all the classes. Sure, you may miss out of a few skills or certain feats, but it's not like *everyone* has to have a high Con or Int. With my 3E rogue, I felt like there was nothing I could safely dump, but wound up dumping Charisma, and letting the bard handle all that stuff. Wisdom *should* have been a dump stat for rogues, but is tied to all the perception checks (Spot, Listen).

 

[Storminator]

Also in relation to this thread. I've dabbed with a few ways to try and make intelligence a bit better, I think buffing the Skill Training and Skill Focus feats was the best choice for me.

new Skill Training: INT Mod number of Trained Skills

Doesn't that make a high INT character trained in every skill with just a couple feats? That sounds fairly unreasonable.

PS

 

[see]

Wow. He counted them. I'd have thought the question was a bit rhetorical myself.

Well, I could have just said, "they're common enough", but that lacks rhetorical punch. And since I'm an obsessive geek anyway. . .

 

[mattdm]

Doesn't that make a high INT character trained in every skill with just a couple feats? That sounds fairly unreasonable.

It's particularly unreasonable when you consider classes with Int as the primary stat. Why do wizards get to be the skill monkeys for (edit: almost) free? Automatic rituals and swappable powers already make them the most interesting out-of-combat class.

 

[Syrio]

House rules I'll use to revamp Int a bit:

Characters have 2 Skill Ponts per +1 of Int modifier above +0. Every time a character increases its Int to an even score (thus increasing his Int mod by +1) he gets 2 more Skill Points.

Skill Points can be spent to
- Increase a trained class skill by +1 (only once per treined skill): 1 SP.
- Increase an untrained class skill by +1 (up to +3): 1 SP.
- Increase a non-class skill by +1 (up to +3): 2 SP.
- Learn the basics of a language (understanding basic concepts and words, simple conversation): 1 SP. (Max n. of languages known this way equal to Int modifier).
- Obtain full knowledge of a "partially known" language: 1 SP.

Whenever a character selects a feat or gains a class feature that grants a skill training or the knowledge of a new language, he gets any skill point he has spent on that skill/language back, and can spend them on any other skill or language as he wishes.

Still thinking about house rules for Wis and Cha...

 

[Harr]

We fixed this rather elegantly (if I do say so myself) after I asked my players about it and we talked for a bit.

Basicaly what we're doing is this: During combat, any character with a +1 or greater INT modifier has the right to know what actions the combatants following them are planning to take, up to a number of combatants equal to their INT modifier, but including any allies within that.

This is generally stuff like "This kobold wants to charge the fighter" or "This kobold wants to say a prayer and heal this other kobold", stuff like that. We agreed that no plot or secret information will be given this way (such as certain plot-important stuff in the last encounter of KotS, for instance).

This gives them a nice tactical advantage and lets them act more "intelligently" in combat since they know what their enemies are going to do (unless they take actions to stop it or make it impossible for them).

This little rule had a great effect and a good reaction, with all the players struggling now to choose between INT or DEX and one of them immediately choosing to switch DEX and INT scores (which I allowed).

I count that as a win

We also talked about Wis and Cha but we decided that they're fine since they both have skills which are directly applicable and beneficial in combat, Wis has Perception and Insight to avoid surprise and detect hidden foes, as well as Healing which is obvious and Dungeoneering and Nature for miscellaneous tactical stuff. Cha has Bluff and Intimidate ('nuff said).

 

[Zurai]

One thing that people are missing about Strength:

The PHB pretty much presents Encumbrance as an optional rule. It specifically says, "The amount you carry should rarely be an issue, and you don't need to calculate the weight your character is hauling around unless it's likely to matter." And, indeed, even a Strength 8 Wizard can carry more loot than a Strength 16 Fighter in 3.5 without encountering any penalties (80 lbs vs 76 lbs).