Odd levels for fighters

[Aus_Snow]

If you want your fighter to be have a high reflex and be skillful, just be a rogue, that's why they're there. For that niche.

That's your perspective. I disagree with it.

Or you can easily open up Unearthed Arcana and go to page 58.

True. You can.

Rogue variant, lose your sneak attack, but you gain the fighter bonus feats. So you can easily have the skills points and higher reflex save.

Correct.

Not good enough for ya?

In fact, it's one of the only variants from that list I *don't* permit in my campaigns, currently. So, no.

Well, ya can't have it all.

True.

Why do ya think there isn't a class with it all.

...?

Need to have a weakness somewhere.

Ah.

As far as those abilities, as extra bonus fighter feats for him to choose, yeah. As extra in between those feats, they need nothing else.

The point you are missing, it seems, is that others' opinions will occasionally differ from your own, and that this is perfectly fine and normal.

And when all's said and done, this *is* the House Rules forum. Y'know?

 

[Baronovan]

Wow, I love a discussion thread where no one likes hearing opinions that differ from their own.

 

[Sravoff]

I don't think I have ever played a fighter with a prestige class. Course I haven't gotten higher than level ten usually but I hvaen't found the need to multiclass.

Just my two copper commons

-Sravoff

 

[Evilboy]

Fighters are just about my favorite class, and I don't really see them as being particularly "underpowered", especially if the DM allows splatbooks or house feats for the fighter to get the most mileage out of their class abilities.

That said, my main complaint with the fighter is that there is really very little reason, by the core rules, to play a fighter past level 8 or 10. This isn't to say a level 20 fighter isn't powerful or doesn't have a wide variety of feats, but for most players the choice between 10 more levels of fighter or 10 levels of something else (PrC, Barbarian, maybe Ranger), there seems to be very little reason to progress as a fighter. The 3.5 fighter is in many ways similar to the 3.0 ranger: a great class for a couple of levels until you move on to your "real" class.

Adding in some moderate or high-level abilities for the fighter would keep the class functional at higher levels of play without relying on uber-feats or ridiculously powerful magical equipment.

The Rogue gains special abilities at level 10 and beyond, and while they aren't necesesarily critical to the class, they reward players who stick with the class when more tempted multiclass options may arise.

I see no reason not to offer the Fighter something similar.

I don't think adding a bonus on odd levels is a worthwhile endeavor, simply because the bonus would have to be so small that it would barely merit attention. Any significant odd-level gain would make the fighter even stronger than they need to be.

IMO, the perfect solution would be to grant the fighter a selection of unique feats (similar but not identical to the rogue's) starting at level 10 and continuing at level 15 and 20. The fighter then has a constant progression of exclusive abilities that encourage the player to stay with the class (weapon specialization, greater specialization, special ability, special ability, special ability), without drastically changing the makeup of the fighter.

 

[Sravoff]

IMO, the perfect solution would be to grant the fighter a selection of unique feats (similar but not identical to the rogue's) starting at level 10 and continuing at level 15 and 20. The fighter then has a constant progression of exclusive abilities that encourage the player to stay with the class (weapon specialization, greater specialization, special ability, special ability, special ability), without drastically changing the makeup of the fighter.

Well said, I agree with you.

Perhaps giving them access to other warrior classes abilities. If chaotic they may gain raging, if lawful good perhaps lay on hands. Or some similar such thing.

-Sravoff

 

[Evilboy]

I'd avoid that approach, as then you're basically having them multiclass without actually multiclassing.

I'd go for something more in-line with the rogue special abilities. Here's a few ideas just off the top of my head:

Stout Mind

Once per day, as a free action, a fighter may roll a Will save using their Fortitude save modifier. This ability must be announced before the roll is made, and is considered used for the day regardless of the results of the roll or change in the modifier.

Bear Wrestler

The fighter gains a +4 bonus on all trip, overrun, bull rush, and grapple rolls against any creature larger than the fighter that is also at least (L)arge in size.

Fast Mastery

If the fighter has weapon focus with any simple (non-martial, non-exotic) weapons, they also gain the benefits of weapon specialization when using that weapon, regardless of whether or not they have the weapon specialization feat in that weapon.

Charging Strikes

When performing a charge attack, if the fighter's attack hits, the fighter may make an additional attack against the same melee opponent at a -10 penalty immediately after the first attack is concluded.


I'm certain there are plenty more one could think up. Essentially, I'd go for special abilities that don't emulate other class abilities and don't stack with the fighter's primary focus (dealing large amounts of damage with a single mastered weapon).

 

[Sravoff]

Good point.

-Sravoff

 

[Felon]

Wow, I love a discussion thread where no one likes hearing opinions that differ from their own.

I'm not particularly fond of patronizing tones, but given the genuine ndignation you seem to feel, I will explain the situation to you in simple terms.

You and Prophecy are not the poor, down-trodden victims of thin-skinned first-amendment-hating fascists. You are being snide and telling other people they're ignorant and bandying around terms like "John Q. Munchkin", and when your bad manners are pointed out to you respond with more snideness and tell them not to try to rope you in.

So guess what? Maybe you want to surf on the boundaries of the forum's policies regarding proper etiquette--confident that as long as you keep your insults directed at a general group of people you're not breaking any rules about personal attacks--but the problem is people don't feel any onus to indulge you. They just want you to go away. They don't want to discuss jack with someone who can't be marginally civil, and certainly nothing you've said demonstrates any real desire to sincerely consider an opposing point-of-view on this topic.

Bottom line: play nice, and people will play back.

 

[Felon]

Fighters are just about my favorite class, and I don't really see them as being particularly "underpowered", especially if the DM allows splatbooks or house feats for the fighter to get the most mileage out of their class abilities.

The issue isn't that they're underpowered (although I'd dare say a barbarian outshines them in most respects). The topic I brought up has to do with those "dead-air" odd levels where they get nothing.

The issue is a relative one. I suspect a rogue would also be "fine" if he gained nothing at a particular level, but he doesn't. Who does besides the fighter? Pretty much nobody these days. A player can spend a real long time at eleventh level.

As I explained above, I'd just like to see them get something. Maybe some background trait that gives them access to a couple of skill points, and develops them more into a certain category of fighter. Some people want a fighter that's more of a noble warrior--a cavalier or samurai. Some want to play a fighter who's a pirate or a cutthroat mercenary. Because skills are assigned by class, a fighter has to multi-class to get real ranks in a skill that could justifiably be inherent to a certain type of fighter. A cavalier-fighter shouldn't have to settle for half-ranks in Knowledge (nobility & royalty), and a pirate-fighter shouldn't have to multi-class just to get ranks in Profession (sailor). Nothing munchkin about using those odd-levels to give a fighter flexibility in those respects. It just lets people play a different type of fighter.

 

[smootrk]

The issue isn't that they're underpowered (although I'd dare say a barbarian outshines them in most respects). The topic I brought up has to do with those "dead-air" odd levels where they get nothing.

The issue is a relative one. I suspect a rogue would also be "fine" if he gained nothing at a particular level, but he doesn't. Who does besides the fighter? Pretty much nobody these days. A player can spend a real long time at eleventh level.

As I explained above, I'd just like to see them get something. Maybe some background trait that gives them access to a skill points, and develops them more into a certain category of fighter. Some people want a fighter that's more of a noble warrior, a cavalier or samurai. Some want to play a fighter who's a pirate or a cutthroat mercenary. Because skills are assigned by class, a fighter has to multi-class to get real ranks in a skill that really could be inherent to a certain type of fighter. A cavalier shouldn't have to buy half-ranks in Knowledge (nobility & royalty), and a pirate shouldn't have to multi-class just to get ranks in Profession (sailor). Nothing munchkin about using those odd-levels to give a fighter flexibility in those respects. It just lets people play a different type of fighter.

Your idea about skill points is a good idea. Having a few extra skill points given out on the dead levels could be a very good idea, assuming they are based on some sort of profession or style. And given the fact that fighters get only 2/level (not including bonus or human considerations), I don't think this will break any sort of balancing issues.

I would make the bonus points contingent on having a particular background or profession that the character is endeavoring to continue to learn.