"OK. Make a Will Save." POOF! Go the Fighter and Rogue

[Darklone]

Good point, Darklone. This makes sense. That is what I find troubling, for the most part, but I couldn't put my finger on it.
Thanks!

Thanks for the roses, what are you going to do about it?

Me for my part prefer low level games. The differences are not that bad and you are mostly disabled after one spell, not killed...

Ah yes. If you use lower stats for your players and NPCs, the DCs are not that high compared to the saves.

 

[Falcon]

I DM low-magic campaigns and prefer to seek out such campaigns to play in.

I may be leaving D&D to play in 7th Sea and maybe even Harn just to see how it plays out. I am working on my own low-level magic system, and people seem to like it so far, so we will see what happens.

 

[Darklone]

As soon as you got it finished, post it in the House Rules, please!

 

[magnuskn]

Alternatives against Super DC´s

Hey guy.

Your problem is not the low fighter Will save, nor the low cleric Refl save, nor the wizards wasted Fort save (though I know some wizards with CON20 and dex10...)

Your problem is D&Ds one spell => kill.

Sure you can teamwork against that. But at higher levels (well, even Phantasmal killer is hard to resist with a high DC wizard) you ARE dead.

Change those spells if you don't like it or look for WoT or other d20 world or systems...

Basic D&D is that way. Do teamwork or die. Or do teamwork and die and get raised.

My playgroup has found this to be highly annoying, also. Let´s see : A Wizard with INT 22 ( Grey Elf, Tiefling, whatever ), with a Headband of Intellect +4 and spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus Transmutation, casts Polymorph Other. Fortitude DC to save against : 27 . A Fighter at this level should have a Fort save of about +14 ( assuming a CON of 16, because secondary stat, Cloak of Resistance +3, Amulet of CON +2 and the base +6 ). Meaning that the Fighter is a frog in 65% of the cases. Hi-yoooh!

Our solution : Drop Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus completely, and at the moment, drop permanent attribute enhancers ( and the Fatespinner PrC, too.) . I´m working to reintroduce the permanent attribute enhancers again, because not having them hurts the Fighter much more than the Spellcasters. If I get it through, the mental ones just won´t have an increase to Spell DC`s. If my calculations are correct, that should put the chance for froggage for Fighters below 50%, and that´s something already.

Magnus

 

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

BooHoo! The evil wizards are powerful and mess with your party? They are supposed to! Goshdarnit!

Wizards of the magnitude described in Magnus' post should better well be a challenge to the party - possibly even the Boss adversary. If a DM throws those in the path of the party indiscriminately he (or she) had better dish out the XP as well. So don't whine, that your party is having an extraordinarily hard time beating magic-users, you might as well whine about the dragons being "over-powered".

I pity the fool that doesn't prepare and make plans when going up against powerful wizards. Those fools have no one but themselves to thank if they are annihilated.

If you keep getting Total Party Kills at the hands of wandering monster-uber mages you aren't having a rules problem, you're having a DM-problem.

 

[Darklone]

Hummingbird, you didn't get what our talk was about. D&D is a stone-scissor-paper game. And it gets worse the higher the levels are and the more splatbooks you use.

For a high level group a standard adversary (no boss monster) probably has death attacks. Chances are even with good saves that several PCs will die over the course of an adventure.

So you can go more into a roleplaying direction (see Heretic of Wyre) but that's a big change for groups that liked hack & slash.

Low magic campaigns where not all PCs have cloak of resistance and attribute enhancing amulets hanging all over them tend to kill yet more chars and raising is tough.

I have no problem with wizards wasting whole groups with several fireballs and cone of colds, but killing one PC with a simple Hold Person or Sleep really sucks in comparison.

Going down in a wave of fire or just taking a nap and get your throat slit is a big difference.

 

[Harlock]

Going down in a wave of fire or just taking a nap and get your throat slit is a big difference.

Either way your dead. Personally as a DM and as a PC I prefer it when PCs get offed by the most unassuming and least threatening enemies. That weak human slave with the kind eyes, long grey beard and highly visible rib cage and hip bones? mindblanked Doppleganger. He thanked you so profusely when your party of do-gooders picked the lock on his manacles. He showed you where his captors hid the trap of ulitmate doom. He graciously accepted your offer to escort him back to the nearest town. He said he'd have his pregnant daughter name her first born son after the party's dwarven fighter, even though Mauglin Stonehammer is an odd name for a human child. Oh, and he'll lead the party's horses to the stream down from the entrance to the old and formerly looted, yet still chock full o' treasure Fallen Temple of Some Forgotten Evil, but there's just so many horses. Can the halfling please come too? BAM! Dead halfling and a bit of sneaking about and a few more shapeshifts later and you have a TPK. Woohoo! Dreams of all DM dreams. It's DM vs. Players right? To the victor go the spoils?

What? It's a game? Survivability is vital to your enjoyment of it? You hate it when your character is a fighter and has to sit around and watch the fight? There's loads of good advice on what to do to increase those saves and still be a highly effective fighter. Here's another idea. Talk to your DM. It IS a game. It SHOULD be fun. If it's not, see if you can hammer out a plan to make it more fun. DMs and players are not opposition, they are all playing the same game. Your DM may just be a pinhead. Maybe he lives for the TPK. Maybe he's afraid they'll take away his RBDM card, I dunno. But a DM that doesn't listen to his players wants and game needs may find himself playing single player NWN for his enjoyment rather than having a group of friends over for an entertaining evening fraught with peril, laughs and rewards. Food for thought from someone who sits on both sides of the screen and has loved this game for better than 20 years now.

 

[Pielorinho]

IMC, right now there's a demon that's following the party around, tormenting them. Its powers include invisibility, flight, major image, hold person, and suggestion, all at will.

It's having a great time with the two fighter-types in the party: their low will saves mean that he's gotten several occasions to use hold person and suggestion on them. He keeps hoping to successfully hold a fighter and then CDG him, but luck and tactics on the party's part have prevented that so far.

Here's how my party has handled the low saves of their brawny guys:
-Protection from Evil: Super-important, as it protects against compulsion effects such as suggestion and (I think) hold person. They keep a magic circle against evil and a couple of protections against evil prepared at all times.
-Lion's Heart: there's a spell in Relics and Rituals that gives a character 5 points to spend on fortitude and/or will saves. It's a high-level spell, but the party cleric makes sure that everyone has this spell on them at all times. When the demon uses his mind-control tricks, people generally blow all five of their points to resist him.
-Protection Domain: The domain power helps with saves, and the party cleric uses this when they think they might encounter the demon.
-Dispel Magic: two different party members keep this spell prepared, ready to use it if a really nasty effect occurs.
-Cloaks of Resistance: These have gone to the fighter-types, since their weakness versus will saves seem to be exploited most often (as a DM, I love enchantments and illusion magics).

I agree that this is a weakness that fighters have. However, if fighters have spellcasters in the party, they can get some help with it. It's actually much more of a problem for critters like giants, who don't generally have spellcasters handy to help them out. And last session, the badass shadowdancer that attacked the party with his thuggish minions was laid low by a single hold-person spell; too bad for him that he didn't have a badass cleric helping him out!

Daniel

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Gee, you are brillant, FD, and soooooooo succint.

Thanks for clarifying everything. I need people like you.

Well, it was the response you deserve for ranting on a silly subject.

You play fighters and then complain that Will save spells take away their only strong point- fighting.

Ok, here is more deserved suggestion:

You make a new class:
Falcon's Fighter
Give them good saves in all categories and a rogue's number of skill points.

Heck, while you are at it- give them spell resistance.

Why should you be forced to play a character that has a weakness?

Lord only knows why 3rd edition does not allow you to take care of that low will save or broaden your input to the group beyond fighting.

FD

 

[magnuskn]

Wizards of the magnitude described in Magnus' post should better well be a challenge to the party - possibly even the Boss adversary. If a DM throws those in the path of the party indiscriminately he (or she) had better dish out the XP as well. So don't whine, that your party is having an extraordinarily hard time beating magic-users, you might as well whine about the dragons being "over-powered".

No, no, you don´t get it. That was *our* partys Wizard.

Magnus