D&D 5E Old Vexed Question: All too Important Dexterity Stat and Finesse Weapons, namely the Rapier

[Paul Farquhar]

No doubt that the the rapier is the "best" choice for a single, dex based melee weapon in 5e. I find that slightly problematic, but more so in that I favor a slightly more medieval style game.

Then don't have rapiers in the game at all - it requires a higher technological level of metallurgical knowledge to manufacture a blade that thin that won't snap the instant it is used, so they don't really belong in a true pseudo-medieval setting.

It doesn't matter if you think they are overpowered, underpowered, or whatever. It's no different to gunpowder weapons - if you don't think it fits with your setting don't allow it.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Allegedly, the feats are OP, not strength. There is the equivalent feat (Sharpshooter) for dex-based characters, which is arguably even more OP. It is ranged only, but so are the above mentioned feats for melee only. It follows from this that the rapier (a melee weapon) is not the main issue, though.

Also, some groups do not use feats at all.

A feat is also required in order to duel wield rapiers. In a no feats game it's d6 shortswords and AC capped at 17.

As for archers, they are good and all, as they should be in a fantasy game, but theorycrafting fails to account for the tight confines of dungeons or the availability of magic bows.

 

[5ekyu]

This is true, but that's because enthusiasts, which people who posts on forums generally are, pay more attention to the subject matter than casual gamers.

So perhaps another way to put it is that if you are trying to determine actual issues with a system (as opposed to issues with a marketing strategy or some other pragmatic concern), you want to get feedback from people who are highly involved with that system.

Most casual gamers just don't care much about the rules. They play whatever their friends are playing, unless it bothers them enough that they don't. Their feedback is vitally important, but if you want to go beyond "people like the game and we're making money" to "how do we refine it to make it the best it can be", then you also need to address the feedback of the people who are really into examining the material.

That WotC's marketing strategy is working should be known to anyone who has been paying attention, so it isn't a subject of contention. My assumption when people bring up an issue with the system is that they feel the game design has room for improvement and they want to address that in some manner (house rules, DMing strategies, interests in future products, etc).

But therein lies the rub... people may not like an aspect of the rules and bring it up due to their own particular preferences and campaign impacts which are just different from what others or many might consider "room for improvement" at all.

There is not an objective better or worse here and many of these threads show just that. There is also not often an objective cause or definition if problem here - just differences in preferences or expectations.

The game wont be objectively "improved" if rapiers are officially changed to d6s. It's just different.

So, among a small vocal subset of a non-representative group, thread frequency is just not a reliable measure of an objective problem that needs to be looked at.

If you look here, you are likely gonna find more than enough threads about the fighter class needing improvement or being bad and one might even see comments about how rarely anyone plays it... but actual surveys of the broader bases of players show it to be one of the more popular choices.

Forum goers are not necessarily more knowledgable or reasonable - they just post or have time to post and if they post a lot its likely they have strong feelings. I know I am not at all the demographic WotC should pursue even though - of course - i know what I am talking about.

 

[Einlanzer0]

Sorry for necroing an old thread, but I feel this is still a worthy discussion to hold.

IMO, the best solution to Rapiers, and finesse weapons more generally, is to to make slightly more liberal use of Piercing rules/resistance/disadvantage. Piercing weapons are relatively clunky and situational compared with slashing and bludgeoning weapons, which can be put to use easily in a greater variety of situations. I'm not really the biggest fan of Mike Mearls and think his philosophical opposition to this is just kind of silly.

So, in my games, creatures without organs, such as skeletons and oozes, have Pierce Resistance. Additionally, attempting to strike a tiny creature with a piercing weapon confers disadvantage. So, ultimately, Rapiers are still strong but they're a bit more specialized and there will be situations where they are less effective.

For the issue of Dex being overpowered more generally, I like to just use a minimum strength requirement for proficiency with different weapons as this is also logical and is symmetrical with the armor rules. I have no issue with Dex contributing to the attack and damage rolls of a Longbow, but an 8 Str character should not be able to become proficient with Longbows to begin with. This is my guide:

Light weapons have no minimum strength.
Standard non-light weapons require an 11 strength for proficiency
Heavy or Two-handed weapons require a 13 strength for proficiency.
Heavy and Two-handed weapons require a 15 strength for proficiency

 

[Flamestrike]

Thank Satyrn... I think the rapier is already a little broken as a weapon, since it is the only finesse weapon with the d8 damage. Thanks again anyway for your advice!

Pretty sure a Strength fighter with GWM who dumped Dex to 8 would overshadow those Dex fighters.

 

[BacchusNL]

Pretty sure a Strength fighter with GWM who dumped Dex to 8 would overshadow those Dex fighters.

Yap, and I'm also pretty sure that from a balance-PoV it's a bigger issue to get those rogues to stop sharpshooting and start stabbing stuff more.

How is the Rapier the problem here? Start with things like switching initiative to wisdom or int if you think Dex is to stacked but nerfing one handed weapons is not the way, I think.

 

[Flamestrike]

I challenge anyone to post a Dex based Melee fighter (AL rules) that comes anywhere near a Str based one.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Dex fighter has higher initiative, kills squishy wizard before they cast a spell. Low initiative STR fighter is taken out by control spell before they even get to take a turn.

High Stealth DEX fighter sneaks past sleeping dragon. Low stealth STR fighter wakes dragon with clanking armour and is eaten.

Confronted by winged kobolds with shortbows, DEX fighter switches to longbow and takes them out. STR fighter's javelins fall short, STR fighter is killed by kobold arrows.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Heh... Dex fighter has higher initiative, discovers that squishy wizard still has enough hit points to survive first round attack and thus Dex fighter gets taken out by same control spell that got Str fighter.

High Stealth DEX fighter sneaks past sleeping dragon, low stealth STR fighter tells high stealth DEX fighter "The only reason we're even here is to KILL this stupid thing!" and then rushes up to attack said dragon.

Confronted by winged kobolds with shortbows, DEX fighter switches to longbow and takes them out. STR fighter's javelins fall short, goes behind cover, waits for the combat to end via the actions of the rest of the party... then the group earns enough XP to level up. At which point winged kobolds somehow never seem to show up as as enemies ever again, as the DM knows they aren't a challenge for the group anymore.



You might say that problems for one table aren't much of a problem for others.

 

[BacchusNL]

Dex fighter has higher initiative, kills squishy wizard before they cast a spell. Low initiative STR fighter is taken out by control spell before they even get to take a turn.

High Stealth DEX fighter sneaks past sleeping dragon. Low stealth STR fighter wakes dragon with clanking armour and is eaten.

Confronted by winged kobolds with shortbows, DEX fighter switches to longbow and takes them out. STR fighter's javelins fall short, STR fighter is killed by kobold arrows.

Sorry but those are truly terrible examples. The Dex fighter isn't one-shotting anything, that dragon should have been left alone or killed outright and what is the rest of the party doing if winged kobolds are an issue? Paladins must be terrible aswell, by that logic.

Dex melee is freakishly terrible compared to str and if this is the best you can come up with I think that point has been proven tbh.