D&D 5E Old Vexed Question: All too Important Dexterity Stat and Finesse Weapons, namely the Rapier

[Cap'n Kobold]

No reasonable optimiser is looking to create something that is the end-all-be-all of builds. The problem is that when they created outliers like GWM + Polearm Master and SS and didn't support 1-handed playsyles the same way it immediatly creates a balance-issue for many players where they feel pigeonholed into those 2 select playstyles. "Balance in D&D is a scale, not a point" someone said in a different thread, and I fully agree, it's just that the scale has to be in a reasonable range and not have the glaring differences in top and low end values it has had for so long.

It's the exact same thing they just got rid of with Tasha and the dominance of Variant Human for race choices. The fact that those changes are only coming after SO many years, where we've gotten too the point where people are already starting to yell "5.5 when?", and the fact there are still many other systems in 5E that are plain under-developed feels off to me and getting a bit tiresome.

There is some great 3rd party content out there to fix some of those issues, and that does count to some extend, but the reach of those products (not to mention seperating the chaff from the wheat among them or reaching a consensus between players and DM on what is fair/ needed in the game) is extremely limited compared to official releases.

I believe that part of the issue that is currently under discussion in this thread is that for some people, melee damage is the be-all and end-all, whereas for others, the other capabilities such as getting in an extra action, or better ranged combat, skills etc have value.

 

[Flamestrike]

Lets just say that I've recently lost a fair amount of faith in human nature. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if, when someone actually produces a Dex fighter in response to that request, the goalposts appear around melee damage only and the standard vhuman BM GWM build is brought out. At which point they likely declare themselves victorious.

The rules dont allow Dexterity to be used with Heavy weapons, and Heavy weapons deal the best damage, and get feat support that ties into that increased damage.

So when I say that the best Dex melee fighter doesnt come close to the best Strength melee fighter, Im just doing so within the context of those rules.

 

[Flamestrike]

I believe that part of the issue that is currently under discussion in this thread is that for some people, melee damage is the be-all and end-all, whereas for others, the other capabilities such as getting in an extra action, or better ranged combat, skills etc have value.

No argument that Dex fighters make better all rounders.

Strength fighters make better melee combatants. The ubiquitous Fighters/ Paladins in Full plate with a Greatsword/ Barbarian with a Greataxe guys deal considerably more damage than Dex based melee martials (barring Rogues).

 

[Oofta]

So heavy weapons are far superior because they deal a point or two of damage more and we ignore AC, Dexterity saves, ranged attacks, stealth and initiative? Umm ... okay. If you ignore half the game and focus only on DPR, sure.

 

[BacchusNL]

So heavy weapons are far superior because they deal a point or two of damage more and we ignore AC, Dexterity saves, ranged attacks, stealth and initiative? Umm ... okay. If you ignore half the game and focus only on DPR, sure.

I think the synergy between feats like Polearm Master, GWM and Sentinel feed into this mostly, building out a package that is much more then just DPR. Esspecialy compared to something like a TWF fighter, who has a hard time forming any identity at all with how their systems are designed.

I would have loved to see the same sort of choices for 1-handed builds (and not just a 3rd -5 to hit + 10 damage-variant for 1-handed weapons) or something like "Longbow Master" so that not every bow user get's shoe-horned into (hand)-crossbows (but that is very much a secondary concern compared to fixing one handed weapon feats)

I think, for example, that they could make a feat for 1-handed weapons users based on the Battlemaste's Riposte ability (AoO when a melee attack misses you, no limited uses per short rest or so) and it would be fine. Would it blow Martial Adept out of the water? Yeah. But atleast 1-handed users would get the tools to consitently play that back-and-forth duel character. Riposting and such are not super powers, I think.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So heavy weapons are far superior because they deal a point or two of damage more and we ignore AC, Dexterity saves, ranged attacks, stealth and initiative? Umm ... okay. If you ignore half the game and focus only on DPR, sure.

What did the Romans ever do for us?

 

[Horwath]

I think the synergy between feats like Polearm Master, GWM and Sentinel feed into this mostly, building out a package that is much more then just DPR. Esspecialy compared to something like a TWF fighter, who has a hard time forming any identity at all with how their systems are designed.

I would have loved to see the same sort of choices for 1-handed builds (and not just a 3rd -5 to hit + 10 damage-variant for 1-handed weapons) or something like "Longbow Master" so that not every bow user get's shoe-horned into (hand)-crossbows (but that is very much a secondary concern compared to fixing one handed weapon feats)

I think, for example, that they could make a feat for 1-handed weapons users based on the Battlemaste's Riposte ability (AoO when a melee attack misses you, no limited uses per short rest or so) and it would be fine. Would it blow Martial Adept out of the water? Yeah. But atleast 1-handed users would get the tools to consitently play that back-and-forth duel character. Riposting and such are not super powers, I think.

Well, 1Hander builds have Shield master feat to use.

 

[BacchusNL]

Well, 1Hander builds have Shield master feat to use.

Hehe, nice one.


That WAS sarcasm, right ?

 

[Horwath]

Hehe, nice one.


That WAS sarcasm, right ?

little bit,

but seriously, if you are using just one onehanded weapon, you should really use a shield unless you REALLY need that hand free.

 

[Oofta]

So dex build with rapier and shield could do either duelist style to get basically the same DPR as that two-hander* with a better AC or take the protection style to help their buddies. At higher level, get both. Heck, take sentinel in there somewhere too. Meanwhile they still have far better ranged options (sans house rules) and all the other benefits.

Don't get me wrong, I personally prefer strength based builds, but there's little justification for it from a rules perspective.

*At least close enough that outside of a spreadsheet no one is going to notice. GWM will make your damage more volatile and in the long run may be slightly better, but I'm not convinced it makes much difference at the table.