D&D 5E On whether sorcerers and wizards should be merged or not, (they shouldn't)

[Fenris-77]

Well, at level 1-4, if the fighter didn't take the archery combat style, but is using a crossbow...
…and it's basically target practice, sure. Seems at odds with want'n to be all 'top shelf' in the spell department, tho.

Hey, don't sell short all those casters for whom DEX is the prime casting stat. Gatekeep much?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Hey, don't sell short all those casters for whom DEX is the prime casting stat. Gatekeep much?

If anyone's buy'n I'll short sell them.

 

[Fenris-77]

If anyone's buy'n I'll short sell them.

I bet you tell people you can sell them a DEX-based alternative for climbing checks too, don't you? You snake oil salesman you. Psst .... wanna buy some acrobatics?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I bet you tell people you can sell them a DEX-based alternative for climbing checks too, don't you? You snake oil salesman you. Psst .... wanna buy some acrobatics?

And we're running a special on STR-based Intimidate...

 

[Fenris-77]

And we're running a special on STR-based Intimidate...

I'll take two, the wife has a birthday coming up. Got anything in an alternative initiative system? Nothing to dear, mind....

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Late to the party here, but I think there's a very simple reason you can't merge Sorcerer and Wizard, and it's simply that they've been separate classes for too long (three editions, twenty years). I mean, if you first played D&D at 8, and it was when 3E had just come out, 2000, you'd be 28. That's practically an old man (I'm 41, don't hit me!). You might well have kids of your own by now (albeit likely very small)!

So all the arguments in the world about similarity or overlap or whatever don't count for much - they have separate identities in the minds of players, and have done for a very long time (sorry other old fellow old fogies!). That means that the only way you'd be getting rid of them would be a fundamental reworking of D&D in one of two forms:

A) Some sort of pared back base class-advanced class system. I get that some people like this. I kind of see the charm, but making everyone do three levels of Warrior before picking from Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger is probably not a good way for D&D to go in future. It doesn't make for a better game in any way I'm aware of, it's just an aesthetic thing. And you'd probably still end up with sorcerers as an advanced class, or hell, maybe they'd be the base class, because it seems to make more sense to say someone is maybe born with magic or not, then can restrain that magic by becoming a Wizard. Anyway, unlikely for a lot of reasons (not least that it might mess with setting concepts).

B) Vancian casting getting binned altogether. No-one in 5E operates the same way old-skool Vancians did, not even Wizards (though they are most similar). I could see an edition in the future which binned Vancian magic entirely. If that did happen, then it would be hard to see Sorcerer and Wizard as entirely different classes, but I think at the very least certain Sorcerer subclasses and the idea of "magic in the blood" vs "trained magic" would still exist. Anyway I don't think it's terribly likely at 5E's approach works "well enough", as you essentially have to volunteer for Vancian casting by signing up as a Wizard, and nobody else does it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Late to the party here, but I think there's a very simple reason you can't merge Sorcerer and Wizard, and it's simply that they've been separate classes for too long

Ha! the Sorcerer is a band-new, johny-come-lately 21st century millennial snowflake class that's only been around...

(three editions, twenty years).

...efffffff...I'm OLD.

So all the arguments in the world about similarity or overlap or whatever don't count for much - they have separate identities in the minds of players, and have done for a very long time (sorry other old fellow old fogies!). That means that the only way you'd be getting rid of them would be a fundamental reworking of D&D

That's one of the two ways to do anything remotely worthwhile in D&D. The other is to simply, as DM, ignore it and do whatever you want.

making everyone do three levels of Warrior before picking from Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger is probably not a good way for D&D to go in future

Unlike two levels of generic fighter before picking Champion, EK or BM?

Vancian casting getting binned altogether. No-one in 5E operates the same way old-skool Vancians did, not even Wizards (though they are most similar). I could see an edition in the future which binned Vancian magic entirely.

It's central to all versions of D&D that longer-period-recharge abilities be higher-power/impact than at-will, and that they be radically imbalanced in favor of the former under the 5MWD. So, non-starter, there.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Players are looking for improvements for the sorcerer in order to create variety in the build options and thematics. It's not to add power. Wizards do not need that because they started with a lot of school based subclasses and are clearly tied to books and lore. There's no need to give wizards something just because Sorcerers get something in an aspect of play that's simply catching up.

To me it is evident that Sorcerer Subclasses are dripping in flavor, the Wizard Subclasses not so much. For others the opposite seems evident.

If both ‘camps’ feel the same way from the same evidence, then the issue must be something else.

My personal belief it is the spell casting system in general, and the interaction with resting. Spellcasters need to be balanced to be able to effectively contribute even w/o spells, like martial classes are balanced to function w/o magic items.

Moon Druids have this balance w/o spells thru Wildshape. Warlocks thru Invocations.

Both the Wiz and the Sorc need some additional class ribbons.

What I object to as unbalanced is giving the Sorc all of the following: Increased Spells Known,
Increased Font of Magic Versatility, and Increased Sorcery Points.

To me, adding ALL of the above to the existing Sorcerer frame is not adding mere ribbons but real power. If this comes to pass, then all classes should be rebalanced.

Since nuance tends to get overlooked in giant discussions like this, I AM NOT SAYING SOME CHANGES ARE NOT WARRANTED, JUST NOT All OF THE ONES LISTED ABOVE.

Again apologies for being so blunt, just wanted to ensure that my prior conditional statements were not being overlooked or as is quite likely, were not clearly stated by myself to begin with.

 

[MoonSong]

To me it is evident that Sorcerer Subclasses are dripping in flavor, the Wizard Subclasses not so much. For others the opposite seems evident.

If both ‘camps’ feel the same way from the same evidence, then the issue must be something else.

My personal belief it is the spell casting system in general, and the interaction with resting. Spellcasters need to be balanced to be able to effectively contribute even w/o spells, like martial classes are balanced to function w/o magic items.

Moon Druids have this balance w/o spells thru Wildshape. Warlocks thru Invocations.

Both the Wiz and the Sorc need some additional class ribbons.

What I object to as unbalanced is giving the Sorc all of the following: Increased Spells Known,
Increased Font of Magic Versatility, and Increased Sorcery Points.

To me, adding ALL of the above to the existing Sorcerer frame is not adding mere ribbons but real power. If this comes to pass, then all classes should be rebalanced.

Since nuance tends to get overlooked in giant discussions like this, I AM NOT SAYING SOME CHANGES ARE NOT WARRANTED, JUST NOT All OF THE ONES LISTED ABOVE.

Again apologies for being so blunt, just wanted to ensure that my prior conditional statements were not being overlooked or as is quite likely, were not clearly stated by myself to begin with.

In defense of all three, just more font of magic options alone will be counterproductive. More options for the same choices only make each choice harder and bring out more unhappiness. More options necesarily require more points.

On the other hand, font of magic options and spell points are completely unrelated to the probelm of spells known.

 

[Todd Roybark]

No, all impact the character. The Font of Magic options described in the U/A article are in effect additional spells known.

Font of Magic, to me at least, is the beating heart of the Sorcerer class. The Shadow Sorcerer is a basic example of how Sorcery Points can be utilized to effectively increase a Sorc’s spells known w/o altering the PHB table.

Bulking up Font of Magic, can solve most ‘Thematic’ issues with the Sorcerer. One could allow the class to chose say one spell per level or every other level to be an ‘Innate Power’ cast like a Shadow Sorcerer can cast Darkness...either thru Sorcery Points or Spell slots.

Sprinkle in some additional Sorcery Points, or ‘free uses’ of certain spells like the Alchemist subclass for the Artificer, and the play experience will be enhanced, without stepping on too many toes.

In my view at least.