Options for epic level play 21st+

[Prism]

I believe we should be getting some suggestions on play above 20th level in the DMG. I doubt we will see a handbook on what we could call epic levels at any time soon - if at all, and to be honest I would be quite happy about that since I don't think you can easily codify those levels since different groups will want different things. Some will look to continue as before with a standard progression, others may want to introduce a cap at 20th but continue playing, and yet others would release many of the built in limits and go off in all sorts of divine/demigod/epic hero directions.

I wanted to collect some thoughts on the mechanics (if any are really needed) of this level of play

• Would you continue proficiency progression. There is a table in the free DMG rules for monsters which could be followed
• Would you create additional levels for existing class e.g sorcerer 25? How would you address spellcasting and number of attacks?
• Would you create new epic level classes like demigod, chosen, perfect wight etc which had high level mechanics
• Would you allow mutliclassed characters to continue in their existing classes e.g fighter 10/wizard 15
• Would you allow stats above 20? Or should this be relevant to a class like the barbarian 20th level feature. Maybe a demigod class boosts the cap to 22 or 24?
• How about 10th level spells, high spellcasting or epic rituals - whatever those things may be

That should do for the moment

 

[sithramir]

I believe we should be getting some suggestions on play above 20th level in the DMG. I doubt we will see a handbook on what we could call epic levels at any time soon - if at all, and to be honest I would be quite happy about that since I don't think you can easily codify those levels since different groups will want different things. Some will look to continue as before with a standard progression, others may want to introduce a cap at 20th but continue playing, and yet others would release many of the built in limits and go off in all sorts of divine/demigod/epic hero directions.

I wanted to collect some thoughts on the mechanics (if any are really needed) of this level of play

• Would you continue proficiency progression. There is a table in the free DMG rules for monsters which could be followed
• Would you create additional levels for existing class e.g sorcerer 25? How would you address spellcasting and number of attacks?
• Would you create new epic level classes like demigod, chosen, perfect wight etc which had high level mechanics
• Would you allow mutliclassed characters to continue in their existing classes e.g fighter 10/wizard 15
• Would you allow stats above 20? Or should this be relevant to a class like the barbarian 20th level feature. Maybe a demigod class boosts the cap to 22 or 24?
• How about 10th level spells, high spellcasting or epic rituals - whatever those things may be

That should do for the moment

I was thinking of some of this.

The proficiency bonus really depends on how all other things are going to progress. For instance using the CR 30 monster of +9 for level 30 might make sense but only if you're only increasing AC, stats, magical items, spells. I kind of have a feeling you would need to take it to +12 at level 30 as levels 20-30 are likely going to be giving powers faster than the first 1-20 did.

However, I love the idea of being able to multi-class fighter 10/wizard 15 but there will likely need to be some kind of Epic rules in addition like every odd level giving an epic feat?

I'm guessing you need to dish out Legendary properties that high CR monsters have since it would make sense for PC's to also get this kind of extra ability. Maybe it's you gain an epic feat or a legendary trait at each level in addition to regular class abilities?

I would think stats cap would increase to 25 + racial ability modifier (humans could get to 26, half-elf to a 27 cha, etc).

I never liked the epic spellcasting because it seemed like it could get out of hand. I would think that there should just be level 10-12 spells created using content from the older editions perhaps?

I think extra attacks shouldnt' increase much. A fighter with 4 attacks and action surge is probably enough. But i could see him getting more uses of action surge so his attacks would go up, etc.

Barbarians getting more powerful rages instead of more attacks, etc. Basically each class just getting whatever they do becoming more powerful.

Rogues sneak attack continuing to progress, etc.

I really think the idea of legendary actions specific to each class being the way to really make epic levels cool. I think it would make combat more complex but it IS epic levels. For instance:

Legendary Action: "Rogue" -
Hide in Plain Sight: A Rogue can attempt to hide without concealment at the end of another creature's turn.
Advantage: A Rogue can gain Advantage on one attack (including attacks of opportunity), save, ability check

Just some thoughts

 

[Prism]

I really think the idea of legendary actions specific to each class being the way to really make epic levels cool. I think it would make combat more complex but it IS epic levels. For instance:

Legendary Action: "Rogue" -
Hide in Plain Sight: A Rogue can attempt to hide without concealment at the end of another creature's turn.
Advantage: A Rogue can gain Advantage on one attack (including attacks of opportunity), save, ability check

Just some thoughts

Thanks for your help. I really like the idea of adopting legendary actions for use by players

Having thought some more on the matter I think there are two ways you can go with epic levels.

Firstly there is the player driven focus where the campaign continues to allow them to acquire more power. They continue to adventure on quests to gain knowledge, divine blessings and ancient relics. The epic level abilities would be a reward for completing these quests and therefore not specifically tied to class levels. Much like class templates in 3e or boons in 4e. These quests could take many years to complete

Secondly there is the wish to continue with a party epic quest or complete an adventure path into these levels. There is no real time for individual quests so a class based system that progresses as normal and rewards by level not by plot point is probably better.

I am going to focus on the first way for a few reasons. Mainly because that's how my group plays at these levels. Also, because it involves much less work when I don't have to generate multiple classes with balanced abilities. It can also be very modular so a cleric might get a stat boost or legendary power from their god, whereas a wizard might get the same rough effect from an epic ritual or a fighter from an ancient legendary sword

So characters can continue to gain levels by multi-classing (much like the gods stats in 3e). Class levels have had their time but it still serves a basic way to add breadth and advance proficiency and hit points.The proficiency bonus will continue to rise as in the DMG for monsters. AC may rise through gaining better magic items

Boons could be...

Immortal gifts of power (stat gains and cap increases)
Epic spell rituals (much research and adventuring to gain)
Ancient god created relics (often with a will of their own)
Absorbing primal spirits (granting legendary actions)
Pacts with devils
Chosen of the Gods

that kind of stuff - just need to work out some details

 

[Li Shenron]

• Would you continue proficiency progression. There is a table in the free DMG rules for monsters which could be followed

This is almost a no-brainer. I think it's quite important to extend the progression in order for the PC to become able to try tasks of ever higher DC. That's because to feel 'epic', the game needs to feature some pretty incredible tasks.

However, reaching higher DC might also be achieved by allowing stats higher than 20. The difference IMO is that proficiency progression is automatic, while removing the stat cap doesn't guarantee that the players will increase those stats... This is something to consider, and I would probably choose to continue the proficiency bonus progression.

• Would you create additional levels for existing class e.g sorcerer 25? How would you address spellcasting and number of attacks?

Yes I would continue the level progression of each class.

Spellcasting progression (daily slots) cannot be trivially extended. Spell level tops at 17th class level, so introducing 10th level spells into the daily spell progression is not immediately easy.

Anyway, I wouldn't want the game to become cumbersome to play, so I would probably stop the daily slots progression at 20th level. I would not add more daily slots from 21st level onward, I would instead add special abilities or remove restrictions, including for example possibly turning some spells into at-will. But more daily slots means just more things to keep track of.

Similarly, I would not increase the number of attacks per round. I would rather add special abilities, or empower all attacks, or even remove the max number of attacks! This is just an idea for a special ability, not a finished suggestion, but the Fighter at some point could simply be allowed to attacks as many targets he can reach in such round (if attacking each only once).

• Would you create new epic level classes like demigod, chosen, perfect wight etc which had high level mechanics

No. But I am in favor of designing campaign-specific prestige classes (already at non-epic levels) so those could be there.

• Would you allow mutliclassed characters to continue in their existing classes e.g fighter 10/wizard 15

Yes.

• Would you allow stats above 20? Or should this be relevant to a class like the barbarian 20th level feature. Maybe a demigod class boosts the cap to 22 or 24?

Undecided... on one hand breaking the mortals' caps makes the game feel 'epic', which is the main purpose of having epic levels at all IMO.

On the other hand, I would have to think carefully what are the consequences of this when stacking with extended proficiency bonus progression.

Generally speaking, I think there won't be too many problems because removing the cap (or increasing it progressively) doesn't immediately imply that the stat will skyrocket, since in 5e there is anyway a limited amount of stat increases available.

• How about 10th level spells, high spellcasting or epic rituals - whatever those things may be

It's all a matter of whether you can design spells that really go beyond the effects of current 9th spells.

You can go safe and just make 10th level spells based on 9th (or lower level) spells with increased effects, but in 5e this is already part of the system of casting at higher level slots, so instead of new spells you could just indeed add higher level slots (or ability to cast 'as if' the slots were higher than 9th). This may or may not feel 'epic' enough however.

The difficulty is in designing spells that feel truly 'epic', but still be able to play adventures that are manageable at the gaming table. An epic spell that destroys a whole kingdom is no doubt 'epic', but how is this going to affect your adventures? Is this going to work, or destroy your story?