Order your Star Wars films

[Gradine]

Excuse me, but this is a naked assertion without any evidence. I cited specific instances from both trilogies. You have declared me demonstrably wrong but made no attempt at proving this by citing the "actual text".

Therefore, which of us ought to be considered to be arguing in "good faith"?

I've gone done this road so many times in so many threads, but sure, what's one more

Here is Rey's arc in TFA:
1) Tries to convince Luke to return to help save the Resistance: Abject failure. Luke does eventually have his "stand down the entire army with a laser sword" moment, but not until after Rey's left him behind and Yoda's force ghost shows up to knock sense into him.
2) Tries to convince Luke to train her as a Jedi: Struggles but then succeeds in finally convincing Luke to train her only to scare him off halfway into the first lesson and piss him off further by going to see the mirror. Speaking of...
3) Tries to learn more about her parents and destiny: Regardless of what RoS does or not retcon re: her parentage (I've yet to see it) there is no way to not regard this as an abject failure. The mirror literally shows her nothing about her parents, and she fails (at least at the time) to even learn the lesson from the experience (that her lineage isn't what matters, what matters is who she is and decides to be). That, or maybe JJ decided that Kylo Ren was lying to her but even then it means she fell for it, and it nearly breaks her.
4) Tries to turn Kylo Ren: Abject failure. At best she opens him up enough to the light side that he kills his master to free her. At worst he merely used her naivety as an opportunity to overthrow his master and gain control of the First Order himself. It's left deliberately vague how close he ever gets to actually turning or whether he ever did at all; but considering where he ends up I'd personally lean towards the latter.
5) Coolest Lightsaber Fight in the Series: You can fight me on this, but you'd be wrong. Anyway, what happens here? Oh yeah, she nearly gets killed until Kylo Ren intervenes. But please, do tell me more about how she never needs anybody's help to do anything.
6) Shoots down some TIE Fighters: Well I mean yeah, but who hasn't?
7) Lifts some rocks: Hey look, Rey finally does something right and helpful at the end of the movie! And it isn't tied to some massive destiny she's been chasing the entire movie, or destroying or redeeming some great evil. It's literally moving some rocks so a couple of dozen freedom-fighters can escape to fight another day. Almost like she has to learn that what isn't important is the size or scope of the role she is to play in the endless struggle, simply that she does what she can to play her part in the greater picture. Almost like this movie has themes or something.

Oh, and for your cherry-picked examples from the end of TFA, you, like most of Rey's critics, cheerfully ignore the examples in the text that don't conform to your very specific (and wrong narrative):
1) "but she just uses a jedi mind trick with no struggle or problem!" - First off, she fails the first time she tries it. Secondly, if Rey is said to have a single core competency, it is that she is a quick study. The relationship between Rey & Kylo in both movies is that of a reluctant teacher and even more reluctant student. She's learning from Kylo's attempted mind torture. The thought "hey maybe I can control this stormtrooper with my mind" doesn't just spontaneously spring forth fully-formed from James Bond's forehead. Kylo showed her how to do it by trying to do it to her (never mind that it's fairly well-established at this point that she's a total Jedi fangirl). Then she tries it and fails. So then she tries it again. It's almost like perseverance is one of her other strongest character traits.
2) "b-b-but she beat Kylo!" - Now this one is a doozy, simply because it is an argument made by people who have somehow missed the extreme, almost comical lengths the movie has gone through to demonstrate how just how hurt Kylo is before they even lock lightsabers. Dude took a direct hit from a bowcaster. Did you think that whole running gag about how ridiculously powerful that gun is was just for a cheap guffaw? Did you think he was just punching himself in his wound over and over again for fun? In crass RPG terms, he is taking some serious penalties to his attack rolls. I mean, never mind that he just killed his father, something we know he has been conflicted about the entire length of the movie. He's not exactly the most stable guy in the first place. And even after all that, the fight ends in a draw.
3) So, there's been much ballyho about the respective power levels of Kylo and Rey compared to past observed Jedi. To that I would say: did you see the prequels? But let's leave those in history where they belong for a moment. Are Rey and Kylo demonstrably, strangely powerful force wielders? Yes. In fact, their "raw strength" is commented on, in-text, by someone I would expect we could treat as an authority on the subject. It's almost as if the Force is... doing something. Like... ending a long nap. If only there were a word...

In any case, this has been long what is sure to be pointless exercise in fruitlessly debunking bad faith arguments.

I guess it does help to remind me how good these movies are. I mean, of course they aren't perfect, but TFA is solid and TLJ flirts with and occasionally reaches honest-to-goodness greatness, and it's because of how much time and energy they've dedicated to crafting good characters and, especially in the case of TLJ, following through on themes.

 

[Zaukrie]

We just finished our re-watch of the whole series.......and wow, the characters are stupid over and over again in the Last Jedi. I had forgotten how bad it was. Still better than the prequels, though possibly not better than Ep 3......Some fun moments in TLJ, but the stupid burns.

 

[Zaukrie]

Lukes whiny annoying and impulsive for most of the first two movies. And gets his ass handed to him multiple times.

It's RotJ Luke people like. ANH it's Han people like.

Let's face it in a few years no one's going to care that much about the new character s and that's entirely bon the writer's. The actors themselves are better than the OT ones (Hamill wasn't great ANH let's face it).

Character development wasn't as good as the OT. There was no chemistry like Han plus Leia. Poe and Rey barely interacted.

On our re-watch, Luke was MUCH LESS whiny than we recalled, and pales compared to Anakin and his whinyness.

 

[Gradine]

On our re-watch, Luke was MUCH LESS whiny than we recalled, and pales compared to Anakin and his whinyness.

I bet there's lots of sand at the Toshi Station

 

[Vael]

Of course you won't, because you can't. I didn't make one attack on Rey's character at all. I made no disparaging comments about her at all. Indeed, I attributed to her wisdom, power, cunning, martial prowess, technical competency, and heck even likability. She's the full package.

To sum up your 15 paragraphs ... Luke is on a Hero's journey, Rey isn't. Because Luke gets beat up by Tusken Raiders and a trash monster and whines about his lot in life, it's okay for him to kill a Death Star, but Rey flying the Millenium Falcon or defeating Kylo Ren isn't a worthy character arc because

Rey isn't even on a path. And since she hasn't struggled, when this story finishes, it won't have been a journey

is pretty darn dismissive. Just because you didn't use the words "Mary Sue", doesn't mean they aren't there.

And you're also wrong. Rey's story mirrors Kylo's story, they're both OT fans. Kylo starts the series wanting to be as powerful as Darth Vader, not recognizing his own power, he literally stops a blaster bolt in midair. Rey idolizes the old Rebellion heroes, but she's still waiting for her family, for belonging.

And what happens when Rey meets her heroes? Han, who ran away from Leia in an attempt to reclaim his old roguish lifestyle, and Luke, who ran away to wither and die? She sees the human frailty behind the legends and stories and realizes her own potential, while Kylo wants to burn the past and forget it.

In a way, Luke, Han, Kylo and Rey are all trapped by the past, and their reactions to it are their main character arcs in TFA and TLJ. Han and Rey both want to retreat to a time "before", Rey, the security of her family, Han, the life he had as a care-free scoundrel. Kylo wants to kill the past, Luke is wallowing in it.

 

[Zardnaar]

On our re-watch, Luke was MUCH LESS whiny than we recalled, and pales compared to Anakin and his whinyness.

Yeah I didn't like Anakin until the Clone Wars cartoon.

 

[Mallus]

But Luke isn't marked by competence.

That's a very strange thing to say about a farm boy who survives the Death Star attack run - and delivers the fatal blow.

But Rey has vastly broader and deeper skills than Luke.

Arguable. I think what we've seen so far (pre-Rise) is Rey having an exceptionally strong connection to the Force.

Don't mean to be terse, but on my way out of the office...

 

[Hussar]

Umm, didn't Anakin, as a child, enter and win a brutal death race that no human had ever managed to win before, as well as pilot a star fighter? So, aren't arguments that those with strong connections to the Force are somehow unmarked by competence kinda, well, way off base?

 

[Zardnaar]

Umm, didn't Anakin, as a child, enter and win a brutal death race that no human had ever managed to win before, as well as pilot a star fighter? So, aren't arguments that those with strong connections to the Force are somehow unmarked by competence kinda, well, way off base?

It was also bad there. There's a reason. TPM is regarded as bad.
He wasn't busting out force powers either.

 

[Sadras]

It was also bad there. There's a reason. TPM is regarded as bad.He wasn't busting out force powers either.

No doubt the TPM was an entire drain full of crap, but I believe the point Hussar is making is that force-able persons have an edge, whether it be in intuition, in their reflexes or general skill, and it has nothing to do with active force-usage like telekinesis, electrical powers...etc. Imagine it in terms of passive power.