(OT) Hmmm Star Wars II Seen it I have! Continued

[Wolfspider]

Concerning Yoda's fighting style in Attack of the Clones, I think that this poster from Salon.com has a valid criticism:

"I can say that I never imagined Yoda would fight like a frenetic green housefly, crazily careening off of walls. I always imagined his saber flying around his body in a wild tempest of motion as he stood, calm and dignified, in the eye of the storm. His mini-kung-fu posing was just too much."

I agree that all of this Matrix posturing is a bit undignified for the greatest and wisest of the Jedi Masters.

Someone asked (in another thread that seems to have disappeared) "Well, Yoda is a Jedi Master...how else is he supposed to fight?" Well, there's one possiblity up there--the telekinetic light saber whirlwind--and a really cool one I think.

Also, imagine if you would the scenes from Akira in which the children battle telekinetically. That's another cool possiblity.

I wonder if Palpatine is going to bust a move in Episode III.

I'm really rather disappointed that Lucus changed Yoda's fundamental personality so much in AotC by having him fight the way that he did. As a currently running commercial loves to point out, Yoda is a "Great Warrior" now, kung fu master and kicker of ass.

I can remember when the wizened old Jedi Master insisted that "Wars do not make one great."

 

[Ristamar]

Concerning Yoda's fighting style in Attack of the Clones, I think that this poster from Salon.com has a valid criticism:

"I can say that I never imagined Yoda would fight like a frenetic green housefly, crazily careening off of walls. I always imagined his saber flying around his body in a wild tempest of motion as he stood, calm and dignified, in the eye of the storm. His mini-kung-fu posing was just too much."

I agree that all of this Matrix posturing is a bit undignified for the greatest and wisest of the Jedi Masters.

Someone asked (in another thread that seems to have disappeared) "Well, Yoda is a Jedi Master...how else is he supposed to fight?" Well, there's one possiblity up there--the telekinetic light saber whirlwind--and a really cool one I think.

Also, imagine if you would the scenes from Akira in which the children battle telekinetically. That's another cool possiblity.

I wonder if Palpatine is going to bust a move in Episode III.

I'm really rather disappointed that Lucus changed Yoda's fundamental personality so much in AotC by having him fight the way that he did. As a currently running commercial loves to point out, Yoda is a "Great Warrior" now, kung fu master and kicker of ass.

I can remember when the wizened old Jedi Master insisted that "Wars do not make one great."

I wouldn't call it a valid criticism. I'd call it one person's opinion on the subject.

The idea of a telekinetic saber battle is admittedly interesting, but I think it'd be ultimately boring on screen. Why wouldn't all Jedi masters fight that way? Why bother even touching the lightsaber at all? Sounds a bit dull, or at the very least, it doesn't sound very Star Wars.

If you're looking for a more practical explanation (and let's be honest, we're talking Star Wars -- if you're searching for practicality and plausible science, you need to find some new movies), if a saber combatant ISN'T using the Force to wield his blade telekinetically, he can likely call upon other Force powers more easily and readily since he won't have to try to juggle two powers at once.

I don't think Star Wars fans ever doubted that Yoda could fight in some fashion (of course, it was shocking to see exactly how well he could lay the smack down, if need be). All Jedi seem to be able handle themselves in a fight, so there's no reason to believe why the Little Green One would be an exception. And while it's true that "wars do not make one great," it doesn't mean he shouldn't be able throw down when the **** hits the fan.

As for the kung fu-esque pose... *shrug* ...It certainly received a positive and audible response from the audience at each screening I've attended, though I can see why some may not find it amusing or appropriate. To each his own.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

"I can say that I never imagined Yoda would fight like a frenetic green housefly, crazily careening off of walls. I always imagined his saber flying around his body in a wild tempest of motion as he stood, calm and dignified, in the eye of the storm. His mini-kung-fu posing was just too much."
....
I can remember when the wizened old Jedi Master insisted that "Wars do not make one great."

So Yoda is incapable of personal growth? Besides, saying that "wars do not make one great" is wisdom that can only TRULY be gained after having been involved in war. Role-playing stats aside, true wisdom comes from experience. It is not a default state. Also, it's not as if Yoda kicked open a door and started wailing on Dooku. He knew what was going on, and it was obvious that a fight was the only way to end the threat of Dooku and save the younger Jedi. Fighting when there is no other choice is, I think, an acceptable choice for the wise.

Moving on to the technique issue... any way of wielding a lightsaber without actually handling it takes Yoda out of the hero role and makes him invincible and uninteresting from a narrative standpoint. You're not a hero unless there's an element of risk, and telekinetically wielding a weapon effectively makes one invincible. The only limitation on how one uses a weapon is the fact that you have to keep your body attached to it. A telekinetically manipulated weapon would be unblockable, or more accurately, you could only block it once. After that, it would simply spin around your weapon and you would be dead. The fight would last about 3/10 of a second.

Besides, are Shaolin any less monks because they can fight? Mental discipline and physical discipline are deeply connected. An undisciplined body can taint even the most disciplined mind. If we accept the theory that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi, his physical prowess should at least match his mental prowess. I think it was appropriate to display this.

Ultimately, though, these complaints are just another version of the "Lucas didn't make MY movie" whining that made Episode 1 a "failure." I think there's something inherently contradictory about the statement "This scene didn't play out the way I always imagined it. It's clear he's gone commercial and lost his artistic vision." Emphasis mine.

 

[Black Omega]

According to a recent Lucas interview--Time or EW?--Lucas said that Ep3 will be two years after Ep2, and ANH will be 20 years after Ep3. If this pans out, then there will be no young Boba Fett getting his revenge upon Mace Windu. Rather, it will probably be either Anakin or Dooku who does the deed.

My assumption is that little Boba can be force grown like any other clone, so he can be a little more suitable age for getting revenge. It might very well be someone else wounds Mace badly and Boba does the CDG. But if Boba's not involved in Mace's dramatic death, there's little point to making a point of showing him holding his dad's helmut. Why set up a classic revenge if you are just going to drop it next film? At the very least Boba should take a shot and fail and Mace is simply unable to kill a kid wanting to avenge his dad.

 

[Sulimo]

But if Boba's not involved in Mace's dramatic death, there's little point to making a point of showing him holding his dad's helmut. Why set up a classic revenge if you are just going to drop it next film? At the very least Boba should take a shot and fail and Mace is simply unable to kill a kid wanting to avenge his dad.

It could just be Lucas hammering the point home that the kid does indeed grow up to be Boba Fett - Bounty Hunter. Like Lucas hammers home several other points in Ep I & II to the point of overkill imo.

Personally, I hoped Boba would get his revenge in Episode III. But if it is set 2 years after AOTC I doubt it will happen.

 

[Fenros]

Canis wrote:

Ultimately, though, these complaints are just another version of the "Lucas didn't make MY movie" whining that made Episode 1 a "failure." I think there's something inherently contradictory about the statement "This scene didn't play out the way I always imagined it. It's clear he's gone commercial and lost his artistic vision." Emphasis mine.

I do agree there are A LOT of people that fall into this category, but I thought I'd drop in a few words here and make a reminder that not all of us think this way.

Some plainly think Ep1 and/or Ep2 were poor films simply because they were made poorly. What I mean is that the art and craft of film making was poor.

I for one fall into this category. I loved the Yoda fight at the end of Ep.2 and had nothing wrong to say about the decision to portray it the way Lucas did. My gripes stem from the poor (practically amateurish) directing and editing (storytelling) decisions made by Lucas.

I know Star Wars is his story, we're just kinda watching it unfold. We're not the creators, we don't have rights to make him change anything.

But the only thing I want from Lucas is better directing. That's all. Heck, I'm willing to overlook Midicholorians if Ep1 was better directed. And although I rated Ep2 higher than Ep1, it still didn't score that high in my book. Again, directing and editing was poor.

But please don't lump me (and others like me) in with those that just complain because things weren't the way they imagined them.

Actually.........well, maybe I am like them. The thing I imagined that Lucas didn't give me was good directing.

 

[Sulimo]

Canis wrote:
Actually.........well, maybe I am like them. The thing I imagined that Lucas didn't give me was good directing.

Well, you should have expected that after seeing the 'romance' trailer

For me, most of my problems with the film stemmed from the direction (and some of the dialog - although with better direction perhaps the dialog issues I had may have been softened).

There were really only one or two cases where I felt things were done that I didnt like. The first was the puns of C3PO, that really had me squirming in my seat; and the other was the Yoda fight. The main problem I had with it was the appropriateness of it all. based on the reaction of the audience, it was treated as a big joke, where I really felt this scene should have been one of the more serious parts of the film. Actually the first thing I thought of after seeing it was the 'vorpal bunny scene in MP & the Holy Grail.

And then there was having C3PO showing up at the farm scenes with Lars & Beru - that whole thing threw me for a loop, pulling me out of the film while I tried to process how that fitted into the continuity of the SW films.

 

[Wolfspider]

Actually the first thing I thought of after seeing it was the 'vorpal bunny scene in MP & the Holy Grail.

LOL! So true, so sadly true. While many (if not most) people thought the Yoda fight was cool, I (obviously in the minority) thought that it was . . . embarrassing . . . undignified... like you said, a big joke.

And, despite what others may claim, I am allowed to have certain expectations based on previous artistic work. The Yoda of Empire and Jedi clearly thought that "wars do not make one great." Now he is "a great warrior" in Clones (a characterization that is focused upon in the current commercials). This is not "personal growth." It is sloppy characterization. A writer or director cannot change the nature of his characters arbitrarily. Like many critics have noted, Yoda has gone from Ghandi to Rambo. Is that "personal growth"? Or merely a way to get a cheap thrill out of the audience?

 

[Rel]

And, despite what others may claim, I am allowed to have certain expectations based on previous artistic work. The Yoda of Empire and Jedi clearly thought that "wars do not make one great." Now he is "a great warrior" in Clones (a characterization that is focused upon in the current commercials). This is not "personal growth." It is sloppy characterization. A writer or director cannot change the nature of his characters arbitrarily. Like many critics have noted, Yoda has gone from Ghandi to Rambo. Is that "personal growth"? Or merely a way to get a cheap thrill out of the audience?

I don't disagree with your right to have whatever expectations you want, Wolfspider. But I thought it might be valid to point out that because these movies precede the original trilogy, Yoda has not gone from Ghandi to Rambo, he has gone from Rambo to Ghandi. That is personal growth.

You may disagree, but I have an easy time imagining Yoda contemplating these very points during his "exile" on Dagobah in the years between Ep III and IV. He sits around thinking, "What a fool I was. I was caught up in the glory and excitement of leading an army and fighting a war that I thought was just. I should have been paying attention to the fact that the Old Republic was going to hell in a handbasket." Clearly he has learned that combat ability is not nearly as important as the ability to focus on your surroundings and find the correct path to follow. I think that his training of Luke is a pretty good reflection of that.

YMMV

On a slightly different note, while I generally liked AOTC, I thought that the scene where Shmi died in Anakin's arms was unbelievably trite and cliche. It would have been so easy to just have one of the Sand People kill her with a pot shot as Anakin tried to sneak away with her. Same net effect but without the (IMHO) horribly overdone death scene that was in the movie.

And I also thought the the "head swapping" and cheesy one-liners for C-3PO in the final battle somehow managed to rob him of the dignity he had worked so hard to retain throughout the other movies up till now.

Anyhow, in short I'd say that where this movie was bad, it was very bad. But where it was good, it was VERY good.

 

[Wolfspider]

I don't disagree with your right to have whatever expectations you want, Wolfspider. But I thought it might be valid to point out that because these movies precede the original trilogy, Yoda has not gone from Ghandi to Rambo, he has gone from Rambo to Ghandi. That is personal growth.

You may disagree, but I have an easy time imagining Yoda contemplating these very points during his "exile" on Dagobah in the years between Ep III and IV. He sits around thinking, "What a fool I was. I was caught up in the glory and excitement of leading an army and fighting a war that I thought was just. I should have been paying attention to the fact that the Old Republic was going to hell in a handbasket." Clearly he has learned that combat ability is not nearly as important as the ability to focus on your surroundings and find the correct path to follow. I think that his training of Luke is a pretty good reflection of that.

YMMV

This is actually a very good point. Let's hope that Mr. Lucus actually runs with this idea. It would make sense. It just rankles me that they're focusing so much on Yoda being a "great warrior" in the commercials. It seems rather hypocritical to me in some way I don't completely understand. In fact, I haven't felt this upset about a commercial since one claimed that "before there were hobbits there was Willow"....