D&D 4E OT: Shadowrun 4E announced

[Jürgen Hubert]

By the same token, why do SR characters go on runs for money if they're then going to blow all that money on cyberware and magical components to use on the next run?

Well, not all of that money goes for cyberware - it also goes for cost of living (and the PCs in my campaign do love to party), bribing and maintaining contacts, getting specialized equipment that is only useful for a certain type of mission, and getting smuggled out of town if they have enemies hot on their trail. Really, this part of the resource management is one of the most fun aspects of the game, and simply hand-waving it away by charging experience points for gear and cyberware would cheapen it.

Or, where does a character get off starting with 1m nuyen in stuff and then actually NEEDING to go on runs?

Well, we don't usually allow such characters, either - but if I would allow them, I'd usually demand some convincing background story (the character escaped from some corp with some really hot cyberware - which he can't sell for as much money, since then it would loose dramatically in price...).

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

This is not problematic once you realize that you don't do a system conversion to try to replicate the original system with painful exactitude. Silly to try, silly to think you need to. Capture the nuances of the setting, yes, but the nuances of the mechanics, no.

The problem is that the rules are so tightly knit to the nuances of the setting that it is hard to seperate the two. The rules came to reflect the setting, and the setting came to reflect the rules.

And I find it be a little obtuse to deny that Shadowrun borrows a lot from D&D--especially if you're trying to support that position by referencing a difference as elusive and inconsistent as "mood". Mood can be radically different between two D&D campaigns. OTOH, some GM's SR campaign might have a very similar mood to his D&D campaign, with vault-robbing, artificat-plundering, and body-looting a plenty. To each their own.

So where does Shadowrun borrow a lot from D&D, apart from the fields I mentioned (fantasy races, magic, "looting")? These are the only similarities I can see...

Well, the rules are a big part of the mood in Shadowrun. Shadowrun captures the mood of firefights pretty well - stand-offs, tactical choices, cover, aiming. Again, the d20 combat rules would have to be rewritten to a large degree to capture the mood of a firefight that well.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Personally I felt that d20 cthulu was far different to the original, to it's detriment. And I don't even like the BRP system...

The gaming advice section in it was gold, however - worth the prize of the book alone.

 

[Ottergame]

So where does Shadowrun borrow a lot from D&D, apart from the fields I mentioned (fantasy races, magic, "looting")? These are the only similarities I can see...

I was wondering that too, he's said that a bunch but hasn't explained. Shadowrun and D&D are about as dissimiliar as possible, while still having fantasy races and magic.

 

[Thanee]

The question is, do you have this thought out rationally or do you just have vague, ineffable feelings on the topic?

Do you even understand (or at least try to) what I write? Certainly doesn't feel like it...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

See, Thanee, this is what I'm talking about. This a pretty rational observation.

You mean basically the same I had already written like 2 pages ago? See what I mean?

Your answers just read like vague statements to the general mood of the thread, not like rational answers to specific posts, really.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

So they're coming with a new the rules set for players to learn, and preserving the source material. The new rules will even be sufficiently different that players won't even be able to use their SR3 rulebooks.

Much like from 1st to 2nd edition... mostly. Stats could not be used anymore, too, but the system still had the same feel to it.

I'm quite certain, that they will not just make a completely new rules set, like if using d20 or whatever is out there. Streamlining is not the same as rewriting. Changing some specifics a little is no big deal and in no way what I at least am talking about.

The big difference is between a ruleset, which is evolved with and built around the background and one that has absolutely no connection to it. Sure, as has been said numerous times already, it might be possible to put up a decent enough version of such another ruleset with the background in question with a lot of work, but it would require writing a complete new ruleset, picking up d20 cyber and stuff and using that will not suffice at all. That would just result in a d20 cyber-fantasy game, not Shadowrun.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Heh, completely streamlined ruleset? Now I'm really curious about what they thought up for 4E. The whole decker/hacker thing doesn't bother me at all, as I'm used to starting any SR game in 2050...and with somecyberpunk under the hood. But I'm deadly curious about the "completely new" rules. Heh. I just wonder if they dare to alienate all the hardcore bucket o'dice fans that the game collected in its various incarnations over the years since '89. The split in the fanbase will happen anyway...there's always been a following for 1E/2E and then for 3E, as the first two were compatible enough to each other to be used together, while 3E introduced enough changes to either buy the new system or stick with what worked for you for years.

BTW...Felon...about you being "smug" and grinning about the fact that a completely new ruleset, by the arguments of some of us, means it's not the same game anymore...at least as far as I'm concerned, Shadowrun as it is published ceased to be the game I know under that name with the onset of the 3rd Edition. Less because of the rules, more of what they did to the setting flavour. But that's another story, and shall be told another time.

 

[Felon]

So where does Shadowrun borrow a lot from D&D, apart from the fields I mentioned (fantasy races, magic, "looting")? These are the only similarities I can see...

So the only similarities you see are things that are defining elements of the game? Borrowing D&D races, going on missions to kill demons and vampires and dragons with big nuke spells and magic weapons so they can amass wealth to upgrade their equipment, all of that represents only a token similarity? Honestly, you're reacting like I'm the first person you've describe SR as D&D mixed with cyberpunk.

Well, the rules are a big part of the mood in Shadowrun. Shadowrun captures the mood of firefights pretty well - stand-offs, tactical choices, cover, aiming. Again, the d20 combat rules would have to be rewritten to a large degree to capture the mood of a firefight that well.

I gotta ask, have you ever played in a game of D20M? Characters don't just run up to each other and empty their clips into each other's heads until somebody drops. They do take cover, they do find themselves gaining ground only to suddenly retreat and regroup. It is very dangerous and requires a tactical approach.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

So the only similarities you see are things that are defining elements of the game? Borrowing D&D races, going on missions to kill demons and vampires and dragons with big nuke spells and magic weapons so they can amass wealth to upgrade their equipment, all of that represents only a token similarity? Honestly, you're reacting like I'm the first person you've describe SR as D&D mixed with cyberpunk.

Shadowrun is fantasy mixed with cyberpunk, not D&D mixed with cyberpunk - and there is a difference.

And I have been playing and GMing Shadowrun on and off for 15 years now, and not once was there a run where the PCs went on a mission to kill demons, vampires, and dragons - if they had to fight one of them, it's not because they planned it this way, but because the creature was an unpleasant surprise between them and the exit. Most of the big nuke spells don't work that well against these creatures anyway (especially against dragons), and the magic weapons are usually more than a hindrance than a help (anyone who spots them astrally will know that you are lots of trouble...).

I gotta ask, have you ever played in a game of D20M? Characters don't just run up to each other and empty their clips into each other's heads until somebody drops. They do take cover, they do find themselves gaining ground only to suddenly retreat and regroup. It is very dangerous and requires a tactical approach.

Admittedly, I haven't played it (have you played Shadowrun?). But merely from reading it I have noticed quite a few differences.

Where is aiming, for example? The way the rules are written, it doesn't matter at all whether you shoot at an enemy while you've had ample opportunity to aim at him, or whether you were just jogging around a corner. In Shadowrun an expert with a big enough tactical advantage and preparation instantly dropping an enemy is not only possible, but likely. In d20 Modern, the end result seems to be much more left to chance than to tactical decisions.