Paladins - likes and dislikes?

[Jupp]

I played one for 6 years in AD&D2e, so I do not have any experience with 3.x paladins. But I really liked my pally as long as I was playing him. For the DM I was the one he could throw his moral dillemmas (grrrr) at. I probably served as a helpless plot giver and for the party more than once. And I was the pain in the neck when it came to holding up the chalice of rightousness and glorious chivalry They even planned to have me killed at one time

The pally was an able fighter and a good alternative when it came to turn the undead (our cleric in the group was cursed with having bad dice results whenever he wanted to turn undead). I never got my mount even though I reached level 10 with my that char. But that never bothered me. I got my holy avenger, a superb plate armor and in the end I sold my soul to two different demons. What else can you ask for in the life of a player character *g*

 

[Kaodi]

Hmmm...

What if the paladin's ability to detect evil at will was changed to an incremental bonus to sense motive?

What if the paladin's mount ability was changed so that any mount the paladin used would become a paladin's mount if they were together (not constantly, but some amount per day) for a specific length of time, until the paladin aquired a new mount or the old one was killed?

What if the paladin's aura of courage also bestowed the bonuses from protection from evil at half-strength (if that is possible), gave a large bonus to resisting mental contol (but not complete protection), and didn't hedge out anything?

What if the paladin had a constant sacred bonus to damage that disappeared only when the paladin used his smite evil ability, which could be used fewer times, but did more damage and all extra damage was sacred(disappeared for a fixed duration)? And if smite evil had a duration in which you had to make a succesful attack, instead of only being one shot.

What if lay on hands worked better on people that were good aligned?

Just some thoughts that came to me. Whether they are really good or really bad is really of no consequence.

 

[Voadam]

I hate the code and evil actions resulting in loss of class powers. Ripe for differences of opinion between DM and player with arguments and ill will to follow. PCs should not have to look over their shoulders aqbout PC choices.

I dislike the multiclass and alignment restrictions.

I dislike the x/day mechanic of smite, I would prefer a lower but constant smite.

I like that mounts can be summoned, makes them a more viable class power.

I like the detect evil at will.

I like the disease resistance.

I like the fear resistance.

I like the save bonuses.

I like that lay on hands gets bigger with levels.

Spells are eh, I think paladins would be better with more power choices rather than spells.

Spells would be better as spontaneous with fewer known.

Turning is a bleah mechanic, I don't like it in general but I do like them having turning attempts for divine feats.

Good use of charisma ability score for a warrior class.

 

[JoeGKushner]

I like the concept.

hate the high stat requirement.

Uh.. want to be able to cast spells... wisdom.

like my smite to do something... charisma.

want to be able to fight... all physical stats good.

intelligence actually being a useful stat in 3.5...

hate the pokemount.

 

[The_Gneech]

I am apparently one of the three people in the world who likes the summonable mount. I won't claim it doesn't make suspension of disbelief a little weird, but there are so many oddities in D&D that another one won't hurt. Is the pokemount any weirder than druids randomly being shapeshifters, or bards singing "Make, make, make that skill check..."?

My only real gripe with the paladin is the multiclassing restriction -- I hate those of all varieties, from paladins and monks to racial favored classes.

I'd like to play one sometime, just for variety; but they're never going to be my favorite.

-The Gneech

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

My biggest beef with the paladin is that they are more disruptive to an average group than a chaotic evil necromnacer played by a 10 year old. The code needs to be MASSIVELY cut down, particularly the parts about lying and stealth. The moral repercussions should be the paladin feels bad, period. Every idiot DM has the paladin running a quest to atone for lying to evil guards for trying to smuggle innocent refugees out of the city, or for not stupidly charging the front gates of an evil stronghold because sneaking in the sewers is "cowardly". Similarly, as someone pointed out, using knockout gas on a group of good (but misguided) NPC's is unacceptable. Its a stupid concept leftover from a bad version of the game (2nd edition).

If they want to keep the paladin from "abusing" these minor transgressions, apply mechanical penalties. He gets a -5 to bluff when lying for personal gain, or he doesnt get any bonuses for flanking or attacking a flat footed enemy.

Other beefs is the detect evil at will (I prefer the scaling bonus to sense motive). I also think the turns should just be replaced with the player's choice of an alternate channling feat. The MC restrictions need to go as well.

 

[Conaill]

Like the "heroic" concept.

Definitely needs to be a prestige class. Maybe with something like a Ftr5 or Knight3 prerequisite.

Pokemount has to go. It's a poorly executed solution to an admittedly important problem. I'd much rather solve it with a combination of Animal Handling, Mounted Combat, and a really *special* mount if need be (e.g. give your paladin a Pegasus, if you really want him to call it "from the celestial realms in which it resides"). Heck, add in a longer-range ability for the mount to sense when its paladin needs its help.

 

[drothgery]

Likes -
* Really like the flavor (LG holy warrior)
* Lay on hands, divine grace, detect evil all really nice to have
* Spell selection is more useful than you'd think

Dislikes -
* Even with the pokemount, it's hard to get a lot of use out of the bonded mount in many campaigns, and you don't have the feats to get the mounted combat chain and something else (or to get the mounted combat chain until very high levels).
* Multiclassing restriction just sucks (especially for Fighter and Cleric)
* Massive multiple ability dependency
* x/wk remove disease not very useful

Proposed fixes

* Make the special mount into a bonus feat chain, with a few other paths (a defensive warrior/shield-expert thing would steal the Knight's schtick, but the Knight's a PHB2 johnny-come-lately anyway); give bonus feats every 4 levels starting at level 4. I'd make "acquire special mount" a general feat and "celestial mount" a paladin-only feat (gives mount celestial template and pokemount ability). Draw the other options from the PHB2 shield chain, the mounted combat chain, divine feats, iron will, great fortitude, and some other stuff.

* Kill the multiclassing restriction; paladins aren't an uber-class

* To reduce MAD
- Make them a Cha-based caster, with warmage-style spontaneous casting
- Give them the ability to ignore the movement rate penalties of heavy armor eventually

 

[painandgreed]

My biggest beef with the paladin is that they are more disruptive to an average group than a chaotic evil necromnacer played by a 10 year old.

Word. I've seen more parties destoryed and more characters attacked by paladins due to them tryign to inflict their code on the party than due to evil characters of any class for any reason.

That is my only dislike about paladins. Not all paladins are played like this but most are. IMHO, paladins should be neurotic about their own behavior and worry more about their own actions rather than being psychotic about what other people are doing. A paladins code only prevents them from commiting evil acts, or from associating with people who are evil or who constantly offend his moral code (ie commit evil acts). This infers that paladins can associate with a normal party of good or neutral characters who occationally commit an evil act (and that good and neutral characters do occationally have moral lapses without affecting their alignments). The need to be loyal to their friends and companions more than to their order. Sure they've got their code and all, but that shouldn't mean that they attack other PCs because they don't adhere to the paladin's code, or turn them over to the authroities because of some minor squabble.

I've seen a paladin played well without being disruptive to the group. He worried about if he was violating his code, not if the other players were. There were a couple of times he sought to change the direction of the group's thinking in certain matters. He usually used the carrot method, "think of the reputation and money that you'll recieve from the king for saving the nation" (which was true) than the stick "I'll attack you to keep you from doing that", and the worst it got was "Do what you think you need to do, but I'm leaving with or without you".

 

[Greg K]

I like the idea of a holy warrior

Dislike
1) The Judeo/Christian influence is to specific for a class. The class should be more customizeable. the class abilities and spells should reflect the deity worshipped and the culture/race of the paladin.

Now given the class abilities as they are:

2) no spell access at 1st level. Having to wait several levels just makes me think that the class should have been a PRC ( I have similar complaints regarding the ranger and hexblades). I would have liked to have seen a bard spell progression or a progression that started with 0 level spells at 1st level, 1st level spells at 2nd level. and a new spell level every 4 additional levels (6th,10th, 14th and 18th).

3) Detect Evil: IMO, this would have been better as Detect Holy/Unholy and limited to detecting
a. Certain Outsiders (devas, devils, demons, etc.)
b. elementals or spirits of either good or evil alignment.
c. intelligent evil undead
c. People, creatures, objects and places under the effect of good or evil divine magic including mindless undead (e.g., skeletons and zombies)
d. divine casters of good or evil alignment


4) Immunity to disease: I don't like absolute immunity abilities (similar complaint about the monk, elves sleep immunity, etc.). I think a +10 bonus to save would have been good enough allowing for some chance of failure against high DC diseases.

5) Pokemount: Dislike the pokemount (actually, I dislike the mount ability, but this just makes the problem worse).

edit: Forgot about the stupid multiclassing restriction. That has to go