Parties screwed without an Int-based PC?

[James McMurray]

The current party in our game is a Warden, Avenger, Invoker, and Shaman. None of them are Int-based. It didn't strike me until after their second fight that they're going to be seriously hurting for magic items after a couple of adventures because their odds of walking past magic items are pretty high.

The Warden is trained in Arcana, but has only a +10 because he is Wisdom and Constitution based. With magic items being DC 20 + 1/2 level to detect, he's rarely going to have more than a 50% chance of finding something. He could focus on it with feats and/or items, but that still means they'll be weaker than the numbers of the game expect them to be.

To fix it in our game I offered the following bonus feats, depending on whether he took the character option that gave him Perception as a class skill or not. In both cases ___ is the name of his god (which he has chosen, but might change once he's had more time to browse through the options).

The Eye of ____
Prerequisite: Invoker, Must Worship
Benefit: Your senses are in tune with the ebb and flow of magic. You may use the Perception skill to Detect Magic as is using the Arcana skill.


The Harmony of ____
Prerequisite: Invoker, Must Worship
Benefit: Your body is in tune with the ebb and flow of magic, and your muscles hum when it is near. You may use your Constitution bonus in place of your Intelligence bonus when using the Detect Magic application of the Arcana skill.

Has anyone else run a party that didn't have an Int-based character with Arcana? If so, how did it work out?

 

[keterys]

I haven't been in a party that needed to make checks to find magic items... in truth I'd actually suggest changing the DCs required. It's odd that they weren't caught in the sweep of errata changes, but they're about 10 too high based on other skill check DC changes they made.

 

[jbear]

Wouldn't Perception notice 'Something Worth Investigating' anyway? Whether its magical nature is detected or not. Then upon detailed examination by the group magic can be detected (or not) with the other PC's being allowed to aid if they make a successful perception or dungeoneering check aiding the trained PC to investigate the object/thing/place in the right place or the right way. Stacked Aid bonuses can go a long way.

 

[keterys]

Well, once you see something you can effectively take 20 on the Arcana check or a short rest will just automatically reveal what it is.

 

[James McMurray]

Wouldn't Perception notice 'Something Worth Investigating' anyway? Whether its magical nature is detected or not. Then upon detailed examination by the group magic can be detected (or not) with the other PC's being allowed to aid if they make a successful perception or dungeoneering check aiding the trained PC to investigate the object/thing/place in the right place or the right way. Stacked Aid bonuses can go a long way.

That's one way to work it, though it'd also be a house rule.

Well, once you see something you can effectively take 20 on the Arcana check or a short rest will just automatically reveal what it is.

You can't take 20 with sensing magic. Well, I guess you could, but it would require 20 extended rests because you can't try again until you've had one. And you could find out all of an item's properties after fiddling with it for a short rest, but doesn't that assume you already know it's worth fiddling with? If PCs have to spend 5 minutes messing with everything they see in order to find magic, that too is "screwed" IMO.

Is it safe to say then that yes, PCs are screwed without an int based character, but most people either haven't experienced that in a party or have ignored the rules that cause the problem?

 

[Saeviomagy]

To fix it in our game I offered the following bonus feats, depending on whether he took the character option that gave him Perception as a class skill or not. In both cases ___ is the name of his god (which he has chosen, but might change once he's had more time to browse through the options).

It seems like it would be easier to silently adjust the DCs than hand out bonus feats.

Also - noone has higher than a +0 bonus? Even +1 will let you pick up level 2 items automatically with a take 10 (which one would assume you're using).

The other possibility would be to stack aid another checks: this is one of those situations where I can imagine that the entire party can help.

However personally, instead of trying to change the rules to guarantee that people find magic items, I'd just make it a guaranteed thing, that is: always tell them, never make a roll. Rules wise, you automatically identify an item with a short rest: I can't imagine many adventurers that would risk missing a magical item by not messing around with pretty much every piece of loot they spot. Not to mention simply picking up everything and taking it with them, magical or not. That's what a bag of holding is for, after all.

But finally it comes down to what you as a DM want. You don't want your PCs missing loot because they were staring right at it and failed the mystical equivalent of a perception check, so make them automatically succeed.

 

[James McMurray]

It seems like it would be easier to silently adjust the DCs than hand out bonus feats.

Numerically they're the same thing. A bonus feat enhances the PC (effectively +4 to detect magic checks for this character), leaving the world unchanged should a new character come in. A house rule changing all DCs has farther reaching ramifications if someone decides to play an int-based character later. For example, if I were to instead lower Detect Magic DCs by 4 for everyone, it becomes practically automatic for every int-based character with training.

It's a difference between maintaining the expectations inherent in the rules and effectively throwing the skill use out of the window.

The other possibility would be to stack aid another checks: this is one of those situations where I can imagine that the entire party can help.

Detecting Magic requires training. Nobody else has the skill, so nobody else can aid him.

However personally, instead of trying to change the rules to guarantee that people find magic items, I'd just make it a guaranteed thing, that is: always tell them, never make a roll. Rules wise, you automatically identify an item with a short rest: I can't imagine many adventurers that would risk missing a magical item by not messing around with pretty much every piece of loot they spot. Not to mention simply picking up everything and taking it with them, magical or not. That's what a bag of holding is for, after all.

Your parties carry off and play for five minutes with everything they ever see? How do they get any adventuring done, or do you just ignore the OCD it would take for people to act that way.

But finally it comes down to what you as a DM want. You don't want your PCs missing loot because they were staring right at it and failed the mystical equivalent of a perception check, so make them automatically succeed.

What I want is for them to have the same chances as every other party assumed by the core rules, which is to say a party with an Intelligence based PC. That's what my bonus feat does.

I did misremember the DC. 20 + half level is for zones and the like. It's only 15 plus half level to find items. He still would have failed his first (and only) attempt because he rolled really low, but at least it wouldn't be so tough in the future.

 

[jbear]

That's one way to work it, though it'd also be a house rule.



You can't take 20 with sensing magic. Well, I guess you could, but it would require 20 extended rests because you can't try again until you've had one. And you could find out all of an item's properties after fiddling with it for a short rest, but doesn't that assume you already know it's worth fiddling with? If PCs have to spend 5 minutes messing with everything they see in order to find magic, that too is "screwed" IMO.

Is it safe to say then that yes, PCs are screwed without an int based character, but most people either haven't experienced that in a party or have ignored the rules that cause the problem?

Why would it have to be a house rule for Perception to discover Magic Items?

What is the RAW rule that says that Magic Items are only discovered by Sensing Magic?

I was of the understanding that in 4e Identifying Magic Items wasn't too difficult at all. I just gathered that you prefered to make finding them a bit more challenging, and the same goes for identifying them. However it seems like this added difficulty is more your own personal ruling.

Surely someone with Streetwise (which I use to include the old Taxation skill) should be able to single out a normal sword from a finely crafted and valuable sword. Although not discovered as magical at first, it certainly should raise enough interest to tuck into a bag and examine later back at the inn.

Or the sharp eye of the Perception expert notices a strange bulge in the villains belt, discovering a hidden pocket sewn into the back. Inside a strange Gem with runes engraved into its many facets. That will be checked out back at the inn too.

How do you hide treasure? What do you expect the PC's to do to discover it. Or is the only way detecting magic, otherwise its impossible?

It seems reasonable that adventurers should Identify valuable objects with certain ease. As long as they take anything valuable they should find most magic items.
If you have a magical knuckle bone hidden on a plate of chewed food... I guess the chances they discover that are quite low.

 

[Squire James]

If you don't intend for magic items to be secret, you might as well broadcast their magical nature so that anyone can detect it. Magical weapons glow. Bags of Holding have 10-foot poles in them. Other items project telepathic "I'm magical!" to anyone in an adjacent square. Or perhaps adventurers, being "special" people, have a minor "magic sense" that automatically lets them sense if an item's magical when they stare at the item real hard for a round or two.

If you intend for magic items to be mysterious and usually masquerading as real items, keep the rules as they are. A party full of Wizards shouldn't complain about lack of melee ability, and this is a similar situation in my opinion...

 

[James McMurray]

Why would it have to be a house rule for Perception to discover Magic Items?

What is the RAW rule that says that Magic Items are only discovered by Sensing Magic?

It specifically spells out how you find magic items, and Perception is not a part of that equation. That said, if you want to interpret it that way and not consider it a house rule, have fun. My interpretation differs.

I was of the understanding that in 4e Identifying Magic Items wasn't too difficult at all. I just gathered that you prefered to make finding them a bit more challenging, and the same goes for identifying them. However it seems like this added difficulty is more your own personal ruling.

I'm following the rules in the Skill chapter.

Surely someone with Streetwise (which I use to include the old Taxation skill) should be able to single out a normal sword from a finely crafted and valuable sword. Although not discovered as magical at first, it certainly should raise enough interest to tuck into a bag and examine later back at the inn.

There are no "appraise" checks. I tell everyone the gp value of the items they find. This does not include their magical worth unless they somehow know the item is magical.

Or the sharp eye of the Perception expert notices a strange bulge in the villains belt, discovering a hidden pocket sewn into the back. Inside a strange Gem with runes engraved into its many facets. That will be checked out back at the inn too.

I agree completely. That's Perception finding a hidden item with obvious magical possibilities, which is completely different than Perception detecting magic.

How do you hide treasure? What do you expect the PC's to do to discover it. Or is the only way detecting magic, otherwise its impossible?

Right now I'm running Thunderspire Labyrinth, so treasure is where the adventure says it is. So far it's all been out in the open.

When I make scenarios myself I don't hide treasure at all unless it makes sense for the treasure's owner to have done so, in which case I hide it however makes sense for them: under rubble for a stupid thing that lives in a cave, behind a secret panel for an aristocrat, etc. Detecting magic can certainly make the search a lot easier if there's magic in the cache, but it's not necessary (except perhaps if the person doing the hiding has used magic to hide it).

It seems reasonable that adventurers should Identify valuable objects with certain ease. As long as they take anything valuable they should find most magic items.
If you have a magical knuckle bone hidden on a plate of chewed food... I guess the chances they discover that are quite low.

They'd find that knuckle bone in one minute with an Int-based character and an Arcana check, so if I were really trying to hide it from them that would be a bad place to put it. Not that I've ever used that particular straw man in a campaign.

What about a filth-encrusted and otherwise ordinary looking belt on a dead goblinoid foe? Do your PCs collect and experiment with all of those?