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Parties screwed without an Int-based PC?

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Why not treat this as a feature rather than as a bug?

On the one hand, many people now complain that Int isn't as useful as it used to be. Here, your telling us that all the PCs dumped Int and now can't find magic items with Arcana. Well Hello! Don't dump Int then!

Cheers
 

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Mengu

First Post
Actually last session, we ran through a series of skill challenges, and I realized, we had almost every pertinent skill doubly covered, except for intelligence based skills which only our wizard seemed to have. We were even challenged with assist rolls because we have 2 people with 8 int, and 3 with 10 int.

So, in skill challenges, they are *really* screwed if there are any intelligence based skills.
 

James McMurray

First Post
Why not treat this as a feature rather than as a bug?

On the one hand, many people now complain that Int isn't as useful as it used to be. Here, your telling us that all the PCs dumped Int and now can't find magic items with Arcana. Well Hello! Don't dump Int then!

Cheers

So they should be bad at what their class does in order to bump a single skill? I'd also take that to mean they're screwed without an int-based PC.
 

fba827

Adventurer
Yeah, basically it is just the side effect of everyone dumping Int, in the same way the party might be surprised a lot if no one is trained in perception and such.

Having said that, to work within the rules as written, your options would be stuff like Skill Focus (Arcana). And the any items that grant bonuses to arcana checks (or powers that grant bonuses to 'the next skill check' etc).

With regards to the proposed feats you mention ...
The first one (The Eye of ___) is, in my opinion too good. Perception is already such a coveted skill, and in general I shy away from allowing additional uses of a skill that fall under another skill; it allows a PC to bone up on the one skill and be good at way too much -- they get the benefits of being "very well rounded" even though they made the choice to specialize ).

However, I think the second feat is workable. I would change the requirements to drop the class requirement, and add "training in arcana." I would also either drop the pretense of "must worship ____" since you said you're going to change it to whatever god the player chooses - or - I'd define which god right now (such as Ioun, correlleon, or sehanine, since those are the arcane-themed ones, or whatever pantheon you use in your campaign). There is no need to make the prereqs be designed specifically for the PC, since you may want to use it for future PCs or NPCs...


Though all this is bleeding in to house-rule territory. So I will leave it at that. :)
 

Lojaan

Hero
How about they buy some kind of magic item that flashes/vibrates/yodels when in the proximity of another magic item? They can just take it out and scan around with it.
 

James McMurray

First Post
With regards to the proposed feats you mention ...
The first one (The Eye of ___) is, in my opinion too good. Perception is already such a coveted skill, and in general I shy away from allowing additional uses of a skill that fall under another skill; it allows a PC to bone up on the one skill and be good at way too much -- they get the benefits of being "very well rounded" even though they made the choice to specialize ).

He's not specialized in Perception, he just has the skill. And he gave up other character options to do it.

However, I think the second feat is workable. I would change the requirements to drop the class requirement, and add "training in arcana." I would also either drop the pretense of "must worship ____" since you said you're going to change it to whatever god the player chooses - or - I'd define which god right now (such as Ioun, correlleon, or sehanine, since those are the arcane-themed ones, or whatever pantheon you use in yoru campaign). There is no need to make the prereqs be desgined specifically for the PC, since you may want to use it for future PCs or NPCs...

True, though I'm not going to force a deity choice on the player. I'm looking to fill what I see as a weakness in the rules, not lay down the Hand of GM Power on who plays what.


It comes off as making a feat specifically for a particular PC rather than worrying about making a balanced feat. I'm sure your intent is to make a balanced feat, it just doesn't need the pretense of being desgined specifically for said PC -- keep it open if you want to give it to an NPC or another PC down the road.

NPCs don't typically get feats, nor do they need any that pertain to stuff they wouldn't be rolling, but you're right about making it more general. It'll probably never see use outside of this character in this campaign, since it's a bonus being given to cover a hole that has so far been unique to this party, but there's no need to limit it.

Though all this is bleeding in to house-rule territory. So I will leave it at that. :)[/QUOTE]
 

jbear

First Post
It specifically spells out how you find magic items, and Perception is not a part of that equation. That said, if you want to interpret it that way and not consider it a house rule, have fun. My interpretation differs.



I'm following the rules in the Skill chapter.



There are no "appraise" checks. I tell everyone the gp value of the items they find. This does not include their magical worth unless they somehow know the item is magical.



I agree completely. That's Perception finding a hidden item with obvious magical possibilities, which is completely different than Perception detecting magic.



Right now I'm running Thunderspire Labyrinth, so treasure is where the adventure says it is. So far it's all been out in the open.

When I make scenarios myself I don't hide treasure at all unless it makes sense for the treasure's owner to have done so, in which case I hide it however makes sense for them: under rubble for a stupid thing that lives in a cave, behind a secret panel for an aristocrat, etc. Detecting magic can certainly make the search a lot easier if there's magic in the cache, but it's not necessary (except perhaps if the person doing the hiding has used magic to hide it).



They'd find that knuckle bone in one minute with an Int-based character and an Arcana check, so if I were really trying to hide it from them that would be a bad place to put it. Not that I've ever used that particular straw man in a campaign.

What about a filth-encrusted and otherwise ordinary looking belt on a dead goblinoid foe? Do your PCs collect and experiment with all of those?
I think the seemingly scummy, filth encrusted belt is a good example.

A character with high perception maybe notices that beneath the gunk, the belt isn't ordinary looking at all, that there is more than meets the eye. He draws your experts eye to it. and just in case it's stuffed into the sack to be examined later.

If you thought I suggested Perception should be used to detect magic, I didn't make myself clear. I think the misunderstanding arises from 'finding' them and 'detecting' them. What I was suggesting was the use of perception to spot valuable objects amongst the blood, filth and gunk. If it's Well Hidden, as you might rule the filth covered, seemling old, crap belt to be, that's still DC 25, and you have to be right next to it otherwise it gets harder.

As far as identifying them once you have them, it seems pretty simple process.
Check out pg 223 PHB, under Identifying Magic Items. It says Arcana checks are only necessary to identify cursed, non-standard magical objects and powerful Artifacts

If you're just handing out the treasure, then how are they missing out on magical items due to lack of INT?

My example of the magical knuckle bone, well... I haven't used that one either. Can't forsee it in the near future either ;)

If the problem is distinguishing Magic Items in a pile of Jewels and valuable objects, maybe they could know/make contact with/befriend some trustworthy NPC who identifies Magic Items for them back at the base for a small fee, of for favours which could lead to larger adventure hooks. Or even an NPC Wizard that travelld with them.


In short, I don't think your party should be too disadvantaged by lack of skill in Arcana. Not as far as finding magic Items is concerned. If your prepared to tell them the worth of each Item they should know which are magical and not anyway, just by comparing the prices in the PHB (standard by level), and if you give them that information, you might as well tell them which are magical and which are not.

Leave the need to detect magic for more special encounters, where their failure has further reaching repurcussions than just missing out on loot. It's only fair that a group of people with sub-par intelligence are bound to make stupid and painful blunders in a dangerous dnd world.
 

Klaus

First Post
*Describe* the items as special-looking, with runes, filligree, gemstones, engraved prayers, rare materials, etc. Ask for a Perception check if the clues are too subtle that this is a special item.

If the players don't pass an Arcana test (and that only serves to say "hey, this is magical!"), they'll have to resort to the time-honored tradition of testing the items, using a weapon in their next fight, or fighting mock combats between themselves to test armor, etc.

Looks like you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
 


Klaus

First Post
The important thing is, don't require that the rely on the Arcana skill for noticing something as being special and possibly magical. The Arcana skill doesn't give out the powers of an item, at any rate.
 

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