D&D 5E People didn't like the Psionic Talent Die

[billd91]

I have to amend my comment. I didn’t play these characters, I ran the game for them. Which kinda invalidates my like or dislike for the mechanic.

Why? You saw it being used even if you weren't using it yourself. It would give you a slightly different perspective, but certainly not an invalid one.

 

[Magister Ludorum]

I loved the Expanded Psionics Handbook for 3.5. For me and my group, this was the best version of psionics ever published for D&D. However, the thing that kept bothering us was the spell point system. While it was similar to the older systems, it made the psionic classes feel both overpowered and underpowered at the same time. It played like a sorcerer who only got the 2-3 highest levels of spell slots, but got a lot of them.

We switched to PF 1e after giving D&D 4e a try and really disliking it. We continued to use the XPH for that game, but were overjoyed when PAIZO came out with the Mystic book. Replacing spell points with spell slots was absolutely the right decision for us.

We liked the last psionic UA well enough that we will continue using it until something better comes along. We even liked the psionic talent die concept, but thought it was really wonky. I won't be sorry to see it go, even though I voted to keep it.

All my group needs is:

1. psionic sorcerer sub-class
2. psiknight fighter sub-class
3. soulknife rogue sub-class
   
   
4. Way of Zuoken monk sub-class
5. Ardent subclass of some other base class (not sure which works better)
6. Some of the cool psionic powers from XPH written up as spells (we've been working on that)

We've already gotten 1-3.

We would like to see manifestations as the default for psionic characters (instead of components).

We would also like to see some of the races from XPH.

In our games, we allow psionic sorcerers (we leave the "soul" out of the name) to choose INT, WIS or CHA as spell casting ability. We also allow WIS or CHA for Favored Soul sorcerers, Celestial Pact warlocks and Paladins.

 

[Hatmatter]

For my money I would rather see psionic classes [. . .] stand a part based on what they can do rather than how they do it.

Interesting observation.

 

[FireLance]

Look, if you didn't like the psi dice mechanic, it's ok. It's a fair opinion.
What I'm really hating right now, is that apparently people refused the mechanic just because it was something new and slightly different than the status quo. That's terrible for the game and for the hobby.

As someone whose favorite edition of D&D is 4E, I completely empathize.

 

[Minigiant]

2... no 3 new thoughts

1. The psionic attacks and defenses might come back as spells in order to integrate psionics to old subsystems
2. The PTD might be relegated to the Soul Knife rogue only as the class already needs a dice to track for damage
3. Removing the PTD as the catch all psionic mechanic alls for it to enter the monk for your Psuedo Jedi. We might find out in hokey religion and ancient weapon is a match for a good eldritch blast at your side.

 

[Undrave]

All of those systems serve a purpose other than just differentiation

Do they REALLY though? You could easily make DnD with nothing but Vancian casting and Superiority Dice mechanics. Heck, if you listen to some people DnD should JUST have Vancian casting as a sub system to begin with...

I think the biggest thing that hurts the psionics die is that it doesn't even tell a clear story. It feels like you have very little control of your psionic ability, which is only appropriate for wild talent psionics.

How is that not a clear story? "Psionic powers are unpredictable and you can over-channel them if you go hog wild"? It's an interesting angle and it works well enough for the three subclasses presented. It's way more fun than just a pile of spells.

I'd enjoy it on a wild talent build. I do not think it is appropriate for a Mind Mage, by whatever name, to have less control of their power than the average Wizard.

Who said this would have been the only version of Psionic? This could have been the 'wild talent' branch. They could have made that fabled Mind Mage another day... I'm not sure how it would be different from an Enchanter Wizard or a Bard though. A 'Mind Mage' just sound like a Wizard who does mostly Psychic damage, or (at worst) a Wizard who bypasses the usual defenses all creatures have and where you need special ability to block them.

It felt very much like what comes to my mind when I think of a character with psychic powers. Psychic potential is almost universally depicted as unpredictable and difficult to control, and often the psychic character can push their powers beyond their normal limit, but only when the plot needs them to, and there’s always some kind of backslash. The die captured that feeling very well in my opinion. If that’s what a “wild talent build” is, I’d be fine with that being what Psionics are. What even is a “mind mage” anyway and what prevents players from making one with the currently available options?

My thoughts as well. Usually it's a power you need to learn to control through discipline and it can run amok if you go overboard.

No. What they essentially do say is that the feedback consistently indicates that the majority of the player base wants to be able to play characters with psychic powers, without having to learn a new mechanic. It’s not that this particular mechanic bothered them, it’s that they want a version of psionics that just uses the existing mechanics and systems.

So they just want Psionic flavored spell. Just a Fireball that does Psychic damage, a couple of Dominate and Charm spell basically? We pretty much already have enough spells for a Psion Spell List if you just copy class features from the Wizard or the Dragon Sorcerer but with Psychic damage as their specialty. That doesn't feel like something that needs to exist as its own separate story then, It's just another Wizard tradition with a focus on mind stuff.

As someone whose favorite edition of D&D is 4E, I completely empathize.

Hear hear!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Do they REALLY though? You could easily make DnD with nothing but Vancian casting and Superiority Dice mechanics. Heck, if you listen to some people DnD should JUST have Vancian casting as a sub system to begin with...

So they just want Psionic flavored spell.

Nope. Folks want psionics, a thing that has always been magic of a specific kind that isn't called magic, to function largely like magic, and leave the unique mechanics to new spells and specific class and subclass features.

A psion should be able to mess with minds, throw stuff around, etc, etc we all know the psychic powers playbook, without a mechanic that all psionics have to mess with that exists for literally no other reason than to make it seem different from "regular magic".

And you could make DND that way, but the fact that you could has literally no relation of any kind to the fact that things like Rage and Divine Smite serve a purpose other than differentiation.

 

[Mistwell]

So, things Jeremy Crawford specifically said in this video:

1) "The majority of people are not interested in Psionics having its own mechanic."

2) The material they've released that is Psionically themed but works like all the other subclasses...the feedback was not only in satisfaction scores but also ... "we dig kind of a neat, sometimes spooky psychic theme, we just want it to work like how things work generally in fifth edition." There were a lot of people bouncing not just on the Psionic talent die, but just on there being a different mechanic at all. People are just like, "Can't I just sit down and play this cool thing please?"

 

[Paul Farquhar]

spooky psychic theme,

That would be the Pathfinder version then.

 

[Undrave]

Nope. Folks want psionics, a thing that has always been magic of a specific kind that isn't called magic, to function largely like magic, and leave the unique mechanics to new spells and specific class and subclass features.

So they want Magic in a new hat, and some regular subclass features.

A psion should be able to mess with minds, throw stuff around, etc, etc we all know the psychic powers playbook, without a mechanic that all psionics have to mess with that exists for literally no other reason than to make it seem different from "regular magic".

So basically...

Psion Spells

Cantrips (0 level)
Control Flame
Dancing Light
Friends
Mage Hand
Message
Mind Sliver
Minor Illusion
Prestidigitation
True Strike
Vicious Mockery

1st Level
Animal Friendship
Charm Person
Command
Comprehand Language
Detect Evil and Good
Detect Magic
Disguise Self
Dissonant Whispers
Feather Fall
Heroism
Identify
Silent Image
Sleep
Speak with Animals
Tasha's Hideous Laughter

2nd Level
Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Calm Emotions
Crown of Madness
Detect Thoughts
Enhance Ability
Enthrall
Find Traps
Gust of Wind
Hold Person
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Locate Animals or Plants
Locate Object
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Nystul's Magic Aura
Phantasmal Force
See Invisibility
Suggestion
Zone of Truth

And so on and so forth? It's almost like you could build a new psion class right out of the PHB (Mind Sliver aside). Not sure you could wrangle THAT many subclass out of it...