D&D 5E People didn't like the Psionic Talent Die

[Giltonio_Santos]

Maybe I played too much card games but that doesn't sit well with me (...)

It doesn't sit well with you because it's an absurd statement. Unless you're implementing a house rule where characters gain exhaustion levels for making too many attacks, no amount of healing can win you a fight.

In fact, because of the way 5e works in regard to death and dying rules, I'd say the optimal choice is to only heal characters if they fall or if they risk losing something on falling (like rage or concentration).

For healing to be as effective as damage, it would have to go a very long way from where it stands now, where the same 1st-level cleric spell slot can inflict 3d10 necrotic or heal 1d8 + ability mod.

 

[Parmandur]

I think they shot the balance in the foot when they removed the 4e healing surge system, since it means spell slots can be potential 'free' HP instead of HP being a consistent daily resource.

Slots aren't free, they burn slots. And if you have no slots, you are limited by hit dice or magic items.

Healing is a daily resource, not a combat resource.

 

[Parmandur]

It doesn't sit well with you because it's an absurd statement. Unless you're implementing a house rule where characters gain exhaustion levels for making too many attacks, no amount of healing can win you a fight.

In fact, because of the way 5e works in regard to death and dying rules, I'd say the optimal choice is to only heal characters if they fall or if they risk losing something on falling (like rage or concentration).

For healing to be as effective as damage, it would have to go a very long way from where it stands now, where the same 1st-level cleric spell slot can inflict 3d10 necrotic or heal 1d8 + ability mod.

Healing isn't for combat. Combat only lasts 2-3 rounds, healing is for preparing to move on after combat.

 

[Undrave]

Slots aren't free, they burn slots. And if you have no slots, you are limited by hit dice or magic items.

Healing is a daily resource, not a combat resource.

I don't want to devolve this thread into one about the value of healing, so I'll say one last thing and may just post a thread on the subject later...

Yes, healing burns slots, but Slots are WAY less predictable in terms of value than number of hit dice or healing surge over the day.

And as Olrox points out:

Which produces a weird narrative were the toughest SOBs need more intense medical attention than the wimps.

Meaning that balancing healing is much harder than it needs to be and ends up weirdly over-valued.

Burning slots on healing doesn't make the next fight go by faster, or prevents you from taking that damage again.

And, again, if HP gain is the same as DMG, then how do you explain:

For healing to be as effective as damage, it would have to go a very long way from where it stands now, where the same 1st-level cleric spell slot can inflict 3d10 necrotic or heal 1d8 + ability mod.

That's hardly equal.

Anyway, we shouldn't deviate from the loss of the Psionic Die.

I hope they keep it for the Wild Talent feat and related feat, that seems like something that could exist on its own.

Also, the Psionic Die system would be WAAAAAY better a model for a Chaos Mage than what we actually have in the PHB with its 'DM may I' mechanic... Just sayin'

 

[Aldarc]

Also, the Psionic Die system would be WAAAAAY better a model for a Chaos Mage than what we actually have in the PHB with its 'DM may I' mechanic... Just sayin'

I can agree with that.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Healing isn't for combat. Combat only lasts 2-3 rounds, healing is for preparing to move on after combat.

I believe we can move from that off-topic as well but, from my experience, healing magic is bad as an after combat activity as well. The life cleric channel gets top priority. If unavailable, healing abilities that don't get better use somewhere else, such as lay on hands and healing light, get priority. After them, hit dice. Only after going through that cycle, you'll look at spending spell slots to heal and then, only if choosing not to heal could create the combat situations I described above (risking a loss of rage, for example).

I've only seen players consider spending spell slots to heal between combats when, after spending all of their other resources, they still had frontline warriors fighting below 50%. And they felt bad about having to do it. Much like the idea of an adventuring day featuring eight encounters, the fact that D&D designers think 1 point of damage = 1 point of heal shows how much they know about their own game. No wonder they think they can create the 5e version of psionics designing by committee.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I don't want to discount what you say here, but I do think that there is another legitimate reason why people want "official D&D stuff," namely that it creates a common shared experience or language for the game community as a whole. So there may be 10 versions of psionics, for example, on DMsGuild, but people may want a version that is shared across tables. So when they sit at a given table, they have a pretty good idea or set of expectations about what they are playing. And when they talk about psionics in 5e, it becomes easier to talk about playing those options rather than traversing which version of psionics from DMsGuild they need help with. I don't think that what WotC produces is necessarily more balanced or authoritative, but what they produce does provide a communal experience and language. It is hardly a coincidence that this forum scarcely discusses DMs Guild materials as compared to discussion for WotC-produced materials.

If the "communal experience" was really all that mattered... then it wouldn't matter what form those rules were. So long as WotC released psionics in any form, then everyone could use it and have that shared experience.

But that's not what we're hearing is it? Nope, we're hearing that individual people want their individual needs met for what their individual opinions on what psionics should be. The irony of course being that WotC is trying to create a psionics system that is communal, by creating one that most players are interested in... and rather than being embraced, they're getting called cowards for doing so. They're "giving in" to the "lazy gamers" who are afraid on "learning something new".

So yeah... I don't really buy your theory that people are just looking for the "communal experience". They want what THEY want, even if most other people don't. And they'll throw WotC and the rest of the community under the bus and insult them all because they aren't getting it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

delete

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I mean, I don’t disagree. If the majority of players don’t want psionics to be anything more than a handful of subclasses with some mind-themed spells and one-off abilities, then so be it. But it’s more than a little frustrating that it’s taken us this long to get there. Hell, that’s what psionics looked like in the dndnext playtest, and back then they told us they were gonna hold off on psionics because they wanted to make sure they felt like their own thing. Here we are 5 years later and they’re saying “Turns out, most players really don’t want Psionics to feel like their own thing, and that’s been the consistent feedback since the Next playtest.” It’s kind of infuriating to be told to wait for them to get it just right, only to come back around to the exact same thing 5 years later.

well, I don’t agree, but I respect it.

Crawford discusses how some people don't like unique mechanics, but I feel pretty confident in saying that if they Psi die had been a fixed number based on your level (that could perhaps be boosted/lowered, but only by "voluntary" effects, not random ones), it would have done two things:

Sure. If you could gain a power boost at the cost of your due decreasing, it would feel more like Psionics, and more like a mechanic that serves a purpose and tells a coherent story

Can’t there be a middle ground between “nothing new, ever, I hate change” and “third edition level massive bloat”?

Sure, and it’s “only new mechanics when they strongly serve the story of new options, and the majority of players don’t bounce off them”. Which is the model for 5e.

D&D players: "I hate 4e! All classes feel the same!"
Also D&D players: "Psionics must use mechanics already in the PHB

Yeah no one is saying that at all.

 

[TwoSix]

So yeah... I don't really buy your theory that people are just looking for the "communal experience". They want what THEY want, even if most other people don't. And they'll throw WotC and the rest of the community under the bus and insult them all because they aren't getting it.

I think you're both right; people want what THEY want, AND they want that to be the communal, official experience for everyone so they aren't ever deprived of it. Neither is sufficient on its own.