Perhaps an old question, but Orcs?

[Theron]

RPGnet didn't seem to have an opinion on this, so I'll try here:

Are orcs really only 1/3 CR? Because with that ferocity thing going for them, it seems they can take and dish out a lot more damage than a hobgoblin (CR 1/2). I mean, granted, they're Staggered after the first 6 HP (on average), but there's still another 12 (again, on average) the players have to wear down through damage and blood loss before one actually goes down.

I don't see where this is errataed anywhere, so I'm assuming it's canon, but that seems a bit low for what I've seen them do to a low-level party.

 

[IronWolf]

I think orcs can be a difficult encounter if not careful. However, I am not aware of any errata to say they aren't CR1/3.

They hit really hard for those early levels, but they in turn are pretty easy to hit. Even with ferocity, once you get them to negative hp they are staggered which slows them down a lot - to either moving or attacking. That definitely cuts down on their options even though they are still standing. Their light sensitivity can also come into play in some situations.

Also their intelligence is fairly low, so while encountered at low level the orc tactics should be pretty simple and crude, possibly a further disadvantage to them.

 

[Theron]

I think orcs can be a difficult encounter if not careful. However, I am not aware of any errata to say they aren't CR1/3.

They hit really hard for those early levels, but they in turn are pretty easy to hit. Even with ferocity, once you get them to negative hp they are staggered which slows them down a lot - to either moving or attacking. That definitely cuts down on their options even though they are still standing. Their light sensitivity can also come into play in some situations.

Also their intelligence is fairly low, so while encountered at low level the orc tactics should be pretty simple and crude, possibly a further disadvantage to them.

I imagined this would be an "it depends" sort of situation. When our group nearly got routed by orcs, it was due to us being primarily a melee party (Staggered isn't really much of a handicap against foes in melee range since you can still five foot step and attack or charge, as we understand it). Also, we were in close quarters, so there wasn't a lot of room to maneuver once we bounced them. Still, it was awfully strange to discover my amped full of rage 4th level dwarf barbarian with a +2 great axe couldn't one-shot a basic orc with anything approaching reliability (and since he does roughly double the damage on a hit of anyone else in the party, it made for some long and grindy fights).

Personally, if I get around to running Pathfinder myself, I'll probably houserule them to a 1/2 CR.

 

[fireinthedust]

good to know! If I run a game where Orcs are more Tolkien-ey, this means they're a viable foe!

 

[dmccoy1693]

Important differences between the Hobgoblin and Orc entry: the orc is a warrior class and the hobgoblin is a fighter class. So if you made the orc a fighter class, it would be CR 1/2. Or if you made the hobgoblin a warrior it would be CR 1/3.

Also the Orc has ferocity which allows them to last longer, but they also have a net -2 on their ability scores. The Hobgoblin, by constrast has a net +4. Plus the orc has light sensativity (giving it a -1 to all attack rolls and perception checks while above ground during the day) while the hobgoblin does not.

My conclusion: while ferocity maybe powerful, the orc has some serious drawbacks that balance it out.

 

[Theron]

good to know! If I run a game where Orcs are more Tolkien-ey, this means they're a viable foe!

Very definitely. They were quite a shock to us, having come from 3.5 over to Pathfinder fairly recently.

 

[pawsplay]

With -2 Int, Wis, and Cha, they suffer not only from a diminished Will save, but from deficient skills. An orc warrior has Perception -1 and Will -1, making them easy prey for well-prepared adventurers. A sleep spell, or even repeated applications of daze, may put them out of action, and even a simple demoralize attempt could be a problem. Being staggered drastically reduces the availability of charging as an option.

It is interesting that orcs are so difficult to one-shot now, but it's not out of the realm of possiblity of the attacker crits, and a raging barbarian may be able to do it fairly reliably just on damage. Still, from a flavor standpoint, it certainly changes their role. They are much more credible as shock troopers than in previous editions.

 

[Aremis]

Orcs

Plus Keep in mind not every orc is 1/3 CR that is the base grunt, you easily add levels to them for leaders to allow for tougher encounters if you wish Orcs to be more or a threat in your world. and not said but numbers will also make the difference.

 

[ancientvaults]

Maybe it is because I am from the oldschool, but I don't worry too much about Challenge Ratings or running creatures straight out of the box. My first game of 3.0 (and I was on that bandwagon from the start) had me adding templates to dwarfs to make a weird challenge for the players and they never noticed it, they just thought that these were some strange magical creatures.

After recently playing Lord of the Rings Online and seeing how tough three goblins can be with the right skills, I am going to delve even further in my monster making for Pathfinder and make monsters more challenging (but not necessarily more deadly all the time). The easiest way to do this through cursory tinkering is to make a few using the monster generator on the PFSRD website, toss them into an OpenOffice file and make a few more adjustments to individualize them.

Monsters aren't just going to wait around by the Challenge Rating for a showdown with the players, and making a few weaker monsters stronger (and rationalizing this move in game via a plotline) keeps players on their toes and guessing.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

When it comes to miniscule CR differences like 1/3 vs. 1/2, the ssue isn't if the encounter will kill the party or be a cakewalk. The issue is that, in this case, the enemy with (effectively) more hp and that dishes out more damage gives less XP than the other monster. At least that'd be the issue to me. It doesn't really matter much that the hobgoblin fighter has a bunch of extra nice things. If you're using them for a straight up combat encounter with the party (which I think is a fair assumption for these monsters; hobgoblins might have a use for a ambush I guess, but you can modify the xp for those kinds of fights for "situational advantages" anyway), the damage and staying power is by far the biggest measure of threat, IMO.