D&D 5E PHB Races in a Post-MotM 5E


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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
yes and I can have something be in question even if you know the answer... and visa versa,

My dad is a car guy I only know 'put gas in turn key go vroom vroom' he has LOTS of answeres about cars that are in question to me. He however can not use a smart phone no matter how many times I explain it (like there are TV comercials making fun of things I had to explain to him 5 or 6 times) aka I have answers to things he does not.

My dad doesn't play D&D... he has no idea what Thac0 means or what a warlock or warlord is for a class... me knowing those things doesn't invalidate him asking "what do you mean THACO?"
Absolutely, and I can't stress this enough, no one has said that it does. You are simply refusing to even engage with the actual meaning of idioms being used in the discussion, and then making wild accusations based on your lack of engagement with those idioms.
okay so far you seem to be getting this... you have an answer, you can provide it without saying the qustion is invalid... it even would have ended this argument before it started.
Obviously not, since I didn't do any such thing.
I quoted you telling me that I have been told things don't count...
No, you quoted me saying that two things being compared aren't the same kind of situation.
it is not a crime. It is highly rude and in no way your place.
No, it is not, and yes absolutely is. I am one of the people you are mockingly accusing of making confusingly contradictory statements. I corrected your accusation. That is not in any way an example of me stepping out of line.
telling me that I am "accusing people of saying" things they didn't is infact calling me a liar.
I don't know if this is intentional or if you genuinely don't understand the differences between distinct things that I've been trying to explain to you, but I'm going to disengage before I lose my gd patience.
 


LadyElect

Explorer
Half-elves are already quite strong, so yeah I suspect they may not see any additions. Though, they're also a bit boring mechanically, tbh.
I think this is the hurdle for WotC (and brewers, honestly) with a MotM-style revision of Half-Elf and Human. When the few strictly defined attributes that existed get shifted toward customizability then the pre-existing customizable attributes like Skill Versatility suddenly become even less interesting for those players that instead desired increased definition. With Fey Ancestry being weakened and added to the goblinoids, Darkvision being present on so many races to begin with, and ASIs/languages being revised, how distinct and necessary does Half-Elf truly seem? It’s a lot easier for them to brush off Human as the less fantastical, blank-slate option. But if both races drift closer to that idea then it brings into question why they exist separately. Tasha’s raised enough “human in hats” arguments so if Darkvision not being on the feat list is almost all that would theoretically separate them then they definitely deserve a greater distinction elsewhere.
 


Parmandur

Book-Friend
With the official individual release of Monsters of the Multiverse upon us, the core design differences between the playable race reprints and the PHB races are abundant and apparent. MotM seems like a good stopgap and indication of what may be coming with the 2024 update. However, for those that intend to run or play in campaigns with MotM prior to a 5.5/6/Anniversary edition, how would you adjust the PHB races to be more in line with the reprints, if at all? As is, mixing the 2 without any updates to the PHB side of things seems like it would leave some potentially jarring inconsistencies.

Some updates seem simple to anticipate and adjust, like a base 30ft walking speed update for those races with 25 currently, Common + 1 for starting languages, and Tasha’s generic ability score increase options for everything (except perhaps Human). However, there are a number of other facets that seem more debatable and open to adjustment.
  • Which currently split subraces survive, or do you consolidate them all into single entries? Since weapon/armor proficiencies have been removed alongside the ASI updates, there is perhaps little reason provided to split out something like the Mountain Dwarf. What does a consolidated Dwarf option get to replace those losses, if anything? Conversely, something like Drow seems more likely to go the way of Deep Gnome/Duergar and receive its own entry with negatives like Sunlight Sensitivity removed. How might you make it stand on its own?
  • A lot of discussion has been given to if Half-Orc makes it through a rework, since many saw it as “Orc, but somewhat palatable” when a greater amount of the uncommon race flavor was built-in. Do you keep and rework it? What about Half-Elf?
  • Dragonborn has seen a number of variants over the years already. Would a rework treat Draconic Ancestry more like the reprinted Aasimar’s Celestial Revelation? Or would you perhaps take influence from the reprinted Kobold abilities like Draconic Cry?
  • Do you give Human any unique attributes or does it remain the versatile, mix-and-match option?
And so on, since there’s a lot more that can be theorized here, of course.

I know that this conversation has been touched upon in other MotM and 5.5E threads (and long, long before), but I was curious to see some more targeted thoughts and ideas on this in relation to running 5E games with MotM specifically. Especially since a full PHB rewrite later down line would obviously include a lot more than just racial option updates.
I think the Spelljammer "Astral Elf" is actually a dry run for the new base Elf, as it can cover both "Wood Wlf" and "High Elf" well. I think k Drow will be a seperate Race, disentangle from the Evil Drow as default. The Fizban's Dragonborn are the new Core, probably. Every other Rave will be reworked, and most of the Subraces can probably be handled as Aasamir were, or as Astral Elf subsumes Wood and High Elf types.
 
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Ondath

Adventurer
How could there be jarring inconsistencies? I keep being told over and over that they're 100% compatible, since apparently only math matters for most folks.

I converted all the races I'm using to Level Up's heritage/culture/background/destiny system anyway, which i believe to be far superior to anything WotC's been using.
Would it be possible to share these conversions in private? I would be really interested in seeing these!

As for the thread's question, some easy changes come to mind: Racial spells being usable with spell slots, short rest recharge abilities becoming proficiency bonus/day, and free distribution of ability scores. The rest would be too much of a hassle (and also raising the very difficult question of "which of these abilities are innate, which are cultural?", which would then require all cultural traits to be replaced with some non-cultural ability of equal value) until 5.5 comes out, IMO.
 

The rest would be too much of a hassle (and also raising the very difficult question of "which of these abilities are innate, which are cultural?", which would then require all cultural traits to be replaced with some non-cultural ability of equal value) until 5.5 comes out, IMO.
yeah that is the part we need paid Game devs to work on, not us.

I would bet we will see more than 1 race get new special qualities to replace things they decided were more cultural then innate. I also wonder what we will use to deliver cultural abilities (backgrounds, a new thing?)
 

Ondath

Adventurer
I also wonder what we will use to deliver cultural abilities (backgrounds, a new thing?)
From the start of Tasha's I had the sinking feeling that WotC's new stance threw the baby out with the bathwater by declaring cultural traits to be too divisive to cover in any game mechanics, which is the primary reason why I dislike the post-Tasha's design principles since it lets such a massive playing field go to waste (to be fair, when Tasha's first came out I was fairly neutral on the change and defended it pretty vigorously against grognards who read ill-intent from the get-go in my country's TTRPG community, but the more time passed the more it felt like what was initially presented as "totally optional" was the new norm). Everything from creature sizes and lifespans being generic and variable to the races they've shown so far all point in this direction. Assuming the free-feat-backgrounds in Krynn UAs are also indicative of their new background design, I think we still won't see any cultural traits there: We will see mechanics of specific background elements (being a knight/mage/farmer etc.) more fleshed out for sure, but these will be more about one's profession than their culture in my opinion.

For people who'd like culture to be a distinct mechanical component, A5E will always be there, I guess.
 


cbwjm

Legend
I think mountain dwarves will change to the standard +2/+1 or +1/+1/+1 with the removal of armour proficiency as well. Not sure what they'll do to make them interesting but with the changes, I'm considering removing mountain dwarf for the time being and just using hill dwarf for both hill and mountain dwarves. I always found the differentiation between the two tenuous anyway.

I don't think we'll see anymore changes to dragonborn beyond what we have in Fizban's.
 


Mister_Fish

Explorer
How could there be jarring inconsistencies? I keep being told over and over that they're 100% compatible, since apparently only math matters for most folks.

I converted all the races I'm using to Level Up's heritage/culture/background/destiny system anyway, which i believe to be far superior to anything WotC's been using.
I'm doing something similar in my current game, used A5E character creation for an O5E game. Hacking all of the pieces into DnDBeyond for my players using custom races, backgrounds, and some feats was definitely a pain, but they love what they got from the process!
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
How could there be jarring inconsistencies? I keep being told over and over that they're 100% compatible, since apparently only math matters for most folks.

I converted all the races I'm using to Level Up's heritage/culture/background/destiny system anyway, which i believe to be far superior to anything WotC's been using.
Only the math requires any design work. Fluff can be changed like a tablecloth.

If two modular elements are designed to plug into the same mathematical structure and work together without problems, they are compatible.
 

LadyElect

Explorer
Hacking all of the pieces into DnDBeyond for my players using custom races, backgrounds, and some feats was definitely a pain, but they love what they got from the process!
This is good to hear, as I’ve only ever used DnDB for their standard content and haven’t needed any of the VTT-compatible features. Might have to mess with the homebrew options to see how easy it is to jump off some of the PHB races. Trying to get the Tiefling variants into a manageable table or other format might be the crushing point. I’ve only ever jammed ideas into note-taking apps like Notion.

And I admittedly totally forgot about Fizban’s Dragonborn updates when I initially included them with my questions. I’ll blame being “at work” on that one.
 



JEB

Legend
My guesses:
  • Dwarves: Will be consolidated into one race, with extra features drawn from the Xanathar's racial feats to replace lost cultural traits (see how they handled the Deep Gnome in MOTM).
  • Elves: Pretty much agree with @Parmandur, elves will also be consolidated, except for Drow. Also agreed that the Astral Elf is likely a dry run.
  • Halflings: Consolidated into one race, maybe mix in Xanathar's feats.
  • Humans: Combine the traits of both 2014 default Human and Variant Human (since I assume feats will be standard). Maybe throw in some Xanathar feats.
  • Dragonborn: They'll just bring over the Fizban's version (minus the Gem Dragonborn).
  • Gnome: Consolidate, though I'm not sure if they'll lean Rock Gnome (because steampunk) or Forest Gnome (because fey).
  • Half-Elf: Not sure. Might stay (because elf), might become some sort of 2024 Human option.
  • Half-Orc: Likely replaced by the MOTM Orc. Half-orc ancestry may remain as a 2024 Human option.
  • Tiefling: They'll get a choice of traits at higher levels, like the MOTM Aasimar, that reflects the newly Legacy Content subraces formerly from Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. Maybe not as many distinct flavors as they had in MTOF, though.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
One possibility, given the Background with a Feat rules,would be Cultural Backgrounds as options. So being from a remote Mountain Dwarf Hold might be an option to add in the Extra Dwarfiness, but also open to Humans or Gnomes or whoever raised in a Hold, and similar for other cultures.
 

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