D&D 5E Philosophy of Greataxe vs. Greatsword

[Vince_Snetterton]

Straying away from the mechanics of the weapons, it makes sense for there to be a lot more Great Axe swingers, (or Maul), as opposed to Great Swords. Anyone who was brought up in a non-urban environment would use an axe or hammer on a daily basis for basic jobs. Swords...not so much. The natural extension of that is that chars would create weapons built around that comfort level. And that does not even get into the technology and cost of making a sword, let alone the training required to master a sword.

A Maul could be made with no steel at all. Steel should still be a rare commodity. Great Axes, obviously fall somewhere between. Game design, from the very beginning, has never properly valued weapons, and to a greater degree, the amount of cash available to low level players.

If the amount of money available to players is not reduced, then the cost of metal weapons has to be increased at least 10 fold. And something like Plate Armour, or Half-Plate, which is fitted, like a suit, forget about it. Only the very rich, and very well connected, have access to such items.

 

[Umbran]

So how about it, guys? When it comes time to choose your weapon, how do you make your decision?

By asking what's appropriate for the culture, background, and personality of the character.

 

[ECMO3]

Using versatile weapon in 2Hands means no dual wielding or not using a shield.
Do not bring monk into this as it is worst class, and it would actually be good balance if monks could use greatswords.

Bladesinger without bladesinging going into melee is suicide by proxy. Also 99.9% of bladesingers will use rapier/shortsword not longsword.

To be clear I mentioned a quaterstaff not a longsword when I talked about bladesinger using a versatile weapon and all bladesingers are proficient in quarterstaffs. I would agree Rapeir or shortwsord is ideal for a bladesinger in terms of build assuming you used point buy or rolled a low strength, but there are pletny of magic items that boost strength and make other options viable and those options are typically better than a rapier or shortsword. There are many magic staffs that are only usable by wizard or sorcerer and those make fantastic weapons for a bladesinger. The staff of striking in particular is an awesome weapon for a bladesinger, even for one with an 8 strength. The staff of defense is really good too if you can combine it with gauntlets of ogre power or can afford to bring potions of giant strength.

Bladesong is a pretty awesome ability but even out of bladeong, a bladesinger built right is pretty darn survivable in melee considering the temp hps, shield and other defensive spells available.

Monks can use greatswords. They just don't get proficiency from their class and can't make it a Monk weapon. I do think Pole Arms should be able to be monk weapons for thematic reasons, but not great swords IMO.

 

[FrogReaver]

Using versatile weapon in 2Hands means no dual wielding or not using a shield.
Do not bring monk into this as it is worst class, and it would actually be good balance if monks could use greatswords.

Bladesinger without bladesinging going into melee is suicide by proxy. Also 99.9% of bladesingers will use rapier/shortsword not longsword.

Using a two handed versatile weapon means you can grapple as desired. Is grappling better than a shield or more damage? Sometimes.

 

[ECMO3]

Yes, I can see hordes of 8th level wizards taking Sentinel+Hold the line instead of Con saves, Fey touched, Shadow touched, Telekinetic, Alert, Warcaster...

Hold the Line would be OP combined with warcaster. It makes warcaster a lot better because it increases the area you can use warcaster by 4 times and dramatically increases the number of times you can use it. In terms of action economy, in most combats HTL + Warcaster would more or less give the Wizard two actions every round to cast a spell.

I would definitely take either over con saves which is a waste IME. I only took resilient con on one wizard and it was complete garbage. FT and ST ...... well yeah those are pretty awesome feats and most of my wizards get them, but I don't think they would have the synergy these feats have..

The key here is though it prevents people from getting to the wizard in melee. That is huge. It does the same for a Rogue that gets these two feats. It also uses a reaction which either class is not using a whole lot.

Consider this, the wizards go to reaction in combat is shield which uses a slot and may or may not prevent oneor more attacks. But after casting it she is still in melee, has to use an action or another spell to disengage. This would use the same reaction, would not burn a slot and would prevent an attack entirely if she hit and on top of this she is ahead on action economy because she is not engaged and does not need to disengage to move.

It might not sound thematic, but it would be pretty darn powerful.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I generated some numbers for average damage, assuming GWM, for various crit thresholds (18 to 20) and total number of crit dice (1 to 4, to account for both barbarians and half-orcs). The axe only pulls ahead in extreme cases. ("Sword:Axe" shows damage of Sword relative to Axe, where Axe is 100%)

Note: I just realized what I did wrong is that this assumes all attacks hit. Crit rate is higher than strictly 5%, 10%, 15% because low rolls miss, so a higher percentage of hits are crits. I will adjust and update shortly.

Update: These numbers assume a roll of 8 or higher on the d20 needed to hit. As that goes lower the sword has an advantage, as it goes higher the axe has an advantage.

Crit: 20, Total Crit Dice: 1
Sword: 8.65
Axe: 7.89
Sword:Axe: 109%

Crit: 20, Total Crit Dice: 2
Sword: 8.97
Axe: 8.46
Sword:Axe: 106%

Crit: 20, Total Crit Dice: 3
Sword: 9.29
Axe: 9.02
Sword:Axe: 102%

Crit: 20, Total Crit Dice: 4
Sword: 9.61
Axe: 9.58
Sword:Axe: 100%

Crit: 19, Total Crit Dice: 1
Sword: 8.97
Axe: 8.46
Sword:Axe: 106%

Crit: 19, Total Crit Dice: 2
Sword: 9.61
Axe: 9.58
Sword:Axe: 100%

Crit: 19, Total Crit Dice: 3
Sword: 10.25
Axe: 10.71
Sword:Axe: 95%

Crit: 19, Total Crit Dice: 4
Sword: 10.89
Axe: 11.84
Sword:Axe: 91%

Crit: 18, Total Crit Dice: 1
Sword: 9.29
Axe: 9.02
Sword:Axe: 102%

Crit: 18, Total Crit Dice: 2
Sword: 10.25
Axe: 10.71
Sword:Axe: 95%

Crit: 18, Total Crit Dice: 3
Sword: 11.21
Axe: 12.41
Sword:Axe: 90%

Crit: 18, Total Crit Dice: 4
Sword: 12.17
Axe: 14.1
Sword:Axe: 86%

If I have time I'll generate a graph that shows these numbers over a range of ACs.

 

[Oofta]

To make the math a little easier let's compare a d12 to a d13 weapon. That's the same 0.5 damage difference. Both are linear so the math behind both is alot easier.

After 2 hits the d12 weapon will do 13+(10 mod) = 23 average damage and the d13 weapon will do 14 + (10 mod) = 24 average damage. Now consider an enemy with 35 hp. The d12 weapon (assuming the previous hits were average damage) will only have a 50% chance of killing the enemy on the next hit. The d13 weapon will have a 61.5% chance of doing the same.

Looking at it through this lens sure makes .5 average damage sound alot more important.

*Also, randomness is usually not in the PC's favor as they tend to be expected to win.

If someone in my game wanted to use a greateaxe for visuals but wanted to do 2d6 instead of a d12, I'd have no problem with it. But there are also various class features and whatnot that allow you to reroll a single die. I don't think it's as clear cut as any one specific scenario and a lot of people people don't care about this level of detail.

I kind of liked 3.5's version where crits for some weapons were more powerful, so maybe add a d12 to damage on crits? I'd probably regret it though when that half orc champion fighter with a couple levels of barbarian for reckless attack along with the lucky feat started playing.

 

[jasper]

Heavens to Murgatroid, a whole extra 0.5 damage! Greatswords are broken, broken I tell you!

Good grief. The swords will likely average more towards the median value, the axe will be more random. The impact of the difference is going to be incredibly minimal.

Now if you really want to gripe about broken weapons, take a look at the longbow that traditionally had draw weights up to 150 pounds or more and explain to me why it's dex based weapon.

Harumph. Or would that be Haru......... Comics and questions like the OP make want me have no weapon damage but class damage. Spell casters d4 Clerics d6 Thiefs d8 Fighters d10 and monsters d12

 

[Oofta]

Harumph. Or would that be Haru......... Comics and questions like the OP make want me have no weapon damage but class damage. Spell casters d4 Clerics d6 Thiefs d8 Fighters d10 and monsters d12

Go old school. You get a d6! You get a d6! You all get a d6!

 

[jasper]

Go old school. You get a d6! You get a d6! You all get a d6!

He got a red d6 with dots. I got a red d6 with numbers. Grumble gripe gripe