Pineapple Express: Someone Is Wrong on the Internet?

[Dannyalcatraz]

I believe in vaccines and am vaccinated, but given the role the industry played in the opioid crisis, the way the industry essentially spends unlimited money influencing legislation and the way the industry has done shady things like jack up the price of vital medications for profit (sometimes to insane prices), I can understand why people are skeptical of the pharmaceutical industry

There’s a WORLD of difference between disliking pharma price gouging and shady business practices and not understanding how pharmaceuticals & public health services work…and spreading misinformation about them.

 

[Bedrockgames]

There’s a WORLD of difference between disliking pharma price gouging and shady business practices and not understanding how pharmaceuticals & public health services work…and spreading misinformation about them.

My point is if you want people to trust them so this sort of thing isn't happening, those are some of the major reasons. I think instead of belittling people who might not know as much as you (not saying you are doing this but it is an attitude one encounters), understanding they are operating from a place of distrust and fear that isn't wholly without reason and needs to be bridged if you do want to build trust

 

[Scribe]

My point is if you want people to trust them so this sort of thing isn't happening, those are some of the major reasons. I think instead of belittling people who might not know as much as you (not saying you are doing this but it is an attitude one encounters), understanding they are operating from a place of distrust and fear that isn't wholly without reason and needs to be bridged if you do want to build trust

The western world has gone well beyond that point now, there is no going back.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The western world has gone well beyond that point now, there is no going back.

I don’t believe that. I think we are in a period of deep division and that divide gets worse the more we dehumanize, demonize and belittle each other, but there have been divisive periods before (especially when communication technology accelerates: things have been much worse before and leveled out). I do realize I could be wrong but not write anyone from either side here off

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My point is if you want people to trust them so this sort of thing isn't happening, those are some of the major reasons. I think instead of belittling people who might not know as much as you (not saying you are doing this but it is an attitude one encounters), understanding they are operating from a place of distrust and fear that isn't wholly without reason and needs to be bridged if you do want to build trust

I understand, but even considering that interrelation, there’s fundamental issues of simple illogic and counterfactualism to deal with.

It’s not a trust issue to understand that no pharmaceutical ever created is 100% effective or free of side effects. Even OTC meds have labels describing possible side effects, dosing maximums,

It’s not a trust issue to grasp the math of myocarditis from COVID vaccines being a fraction of the likelihood of myocarditis from COVID itself.

It’s not a trust issue to understand that oxygen molecules are orders of magnitude smaller than the COVID virus, so appropriate masking will not meaningfully inhibit breathing.

It’s not a trust issue to understand that anti-parasitics, antibiotics, and antiviral medications only work on certain things and not others.

Etc.

That stuff is all rooted in scientific illiteracy & rejection.

 

[Deset Gled]

My point is if you want people to trust them so this sort of thing isn't happening, those are some of the major reasons. I think instead of belittling people who might not know as much as you (not saying you are doing this but it is an attitude one encounters), understanding they are operating from a place of distrust and fear that isn't wholly without reason and needs to be bridged if you do want to build trust

To add to Danny's point: the person in @Ryujin's story was also lying about their credentials. Kinda hard to lecture someone about building trust when the other side is literally arguing in bad faith. Some change must come from within.

 

[Ryujin]

To add to Danny's point: the person in @Ryujin's story was also lying about their credentials. Kinda hard to lecture someone about building trust when the other side is literally arguing in bad faith. Some change must come from within.

Precisely. That's why I put "virologist" in quotes. A computer technician shouldn't be more knowledgeable than a virologist, about vaccines.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Precisely. That's why I put "virologist" in quotes. A computer technician shouldn't be more knowledgeable that a virologist, about vaccines.

Certainly. But that is the internet for you. The stakes were much lower but I had a debate with a person who claimed to be a music teacher about the blurred lines and it was clear even to me the person didn't understand any of the points me and others were making about music theory. So I am assuming this person was just making that claim because they felt opposite than we did about the case and wanted their opinion to have greater weight. But that is just a typical day online

 

[Bedrockgames]

I understand, but even considering that interrelation, there’s fundamental issues of simple illogic and counterfactualism to deal with.

It’s not a trust issue to understand that no pharmaceutical ever created is 100% effective or free of side effects. Even OTC meds have labels describing possible side effects, dosing maximums,

It’s not a trust issue to grasp the math of myocarditis from COVID vaccines being a fraction of the likelihood of myocarditis from COVID itself.

It’s not a trust issue to understand that oxygen molecules are orders of magnitude smaller than the COVID virus, so appropriate masking will not meaningfully inhibit breathing.

It’s not a trust issue to understand that anti-parasitics, antibiotics, and antiviral medications only work on certain things and not others.

Etc.

That stuff is all rooted in scientific illiteracy & rejection.

These things are very much, in my experience more about trust than the person's understanding of science. Obviously there is a mix here, and some people simply don't understand the statistics being put forward. But I think in most cases it begins with mistrust of the source of those stats. The issue with myocarditis wasn't that they didn't understand physicians were saying that the risks for it with Covid were worse than from the vaccines, it is that they didn't trust the numbers they were given (and they were also wary because the vaccine was new and were worried about unknown long term effects). Pharmaceutical companies downplay side effects all the time. For example we were told that the new opioids were non-addictive for a while (even though the opposite was true). And they were downplaying myocarditis and pericarditis as well emphasizing they were all mild cases (which might be true but those are still very serious illnesses, I have had pericarditis and isn't a joke). I think if they had treated the myocarditis issue more gravely and less glibly, that would have helped them secure trust in people who were nervous (instead they took a 'don't worry your pretty little head' approach). There has been decades long mistrust created by these companies. Now I am not saying the people who draw these conclusions are right. Like I said I got the vaccine (and I believe it prevented me from having severe COVID when I first caught Covid). But if we just paint these folks as idiots who don't know science, you aren't going to ever convince them. And let's be honest many of us who believe in the vaccines are just as scientifically illiterate.

 

[AnotherGuy]

There’s a WORLD of difference between disliking pharma price gouging and shady business practices and not understanding how pharmaceuticals & public health services work…and spreading misinformation about them.

I've never known censorship to help build trust and confidence.
The lack of willingness to debate issues publicly amongst peers certainly didn't help matters.