Player looking to "jazz up" character

[Sejs]

Actually, question on the Throwing/Returning Double weapon - if you enchant both heads, do you get two attacks against a target that you've thrown your weapon at?

 

[Spatula]

I have always ruled that you get the benefit of your feats however you use the weapon. Some people rule that things like weapon focus and weapon specialization do not cross over between 'modes' of use. So I guess it depends on what type of DM you are.

Wow, I've never heard of that one before. What justification could a DM possibly have for not letting a dagger expert, say, not get his weapon specialization when throwing daggers?

 

[drnuncheon]

Wow, I've never heard of that one before. What justification could a DM possibly have for not letting a dagger expert, say, not get his weapon specialization when throwing daggers?

Basically, "Throwing a dagger is different from using it in melee."

PGCen used to (can't recall if it does now or not) differentiate between 1-handed and 2-handed use of weapons like the bastard sword.

J

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, question on the Throwing/Returning Double weapon - if you enchant both heads, do you get two attacks against a target that you've thrown your weapon at?

Now I want to stat up Krull's Glaive as an artifact...

A Keen, Shocking, Dancing, Spell-Turning Dagger of Returning, with built-in Improved Manyshot (5 attacks on each target), Ranged Cleave, and Combat Reflexes - it can make AoOs on its own while hovering...

-Hyp.

 

[Spatula]

Basically, "Throwing a dagger is different from using it in melee."

Yeah, but if you've trained with a weapon to the point where you have feats focused on that weapon, you'd have trained with all the different ways of using that weapon. I guess what surprises me is that there's nothing in the rules to even suggest something like that. Plus, weapons that can be thrown and used in melee are generally suboptimal weapon choices anyway, so if they want to focus on the spear (or dagger), there's no good reason to limit the PC's effectiveness even more.

 

[krunchyfrogg]

<font size="5">CLEAVE!!!</font></b></i>


Ok, now that that's out, why not see if this guy can gain a few levels of Barbarian. A rage or two would make him very interesting.

Maybe Giant Killer PrC instead. It sounds like he's just about perfect for that PrC, except for the feat requirements.

 

[LostSoul]

Have him take full advantage of his greater number of attacks. A often overlooked ability is to use rapid shot in conjunction with TWF.

I have (had) a PC in my campaign that threw daggers. I allowed him to make use of TWF and Rapid Shot. His attacks were something like +11/+11/+11/+6 (+9/+9/+6 melee) with a BAB of +10/+5. It didn't seem like an unbalanced combo at all - even with Weapon Specialization, he didn't outshine the Fighter/Paladin of the same level in combat.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Did you remember that if he makes a ranged attack in the same round as he uses both hands to attack, the ranged attack does not gain the reduction in penalty that the Two-Weapon Fighting feat provides?

Example:

With BAB +10/+5, melee dagger bonus of +1 (say Weapon Focus and Str 10), ranged dagger bonus of +4 (say Weapon Focus and Dex 16), he could :

a/ Make two melee attacks with his right dagger and one with his left at +9/+9/+4 (+10 +1 -2t / +10 +1 -2t / +5 +1 -2t)

t: -4 for attacking with two weapons, reduced to -2 with TWF feat

b/ Throw three daggers with his right hand using Rapid Shot at +12/+12/+7 (+10 +4 -2r / +10 +4 -2r / +5 +4 -2r)

r: -2 for Rapid Shot

c/ Make two melee attacks with his right dagger, and then throw it using Rapid shot at +9/+9/+7 (+10 +1 -2r / +10 +1 -2r / +5 +4 -2r)

r: -2 for Rapid Shot

d/ Throw two daggers with his right hand and one with his left at +10/+10/+5 (+10 +4 -4t / +10 +4 -4t / +5 +4 -4t)

t: -4 for attacking with two weapons, not reduced by TWF

e/ Throw three daggers with his right hand using rapid shot and one with his left hand at +8/+8/+8/+3 (+10 +4 -4t -2r / +10 +4 -4t -2r / +10 +4 -4t -2r / +5 +4 -4t -2r)

r: -2 for Rapid Shot
t: -4 for attacking with two weapons, not reduced by TWF

e/ Make two melee attacks with his right hand, one with his left, and throw his right dagger using rapid shot at +7/+7/+2 and +8 (+10 +1 -2t1 -2r / +10 +1 -2t1 -2r / +5 +1 -2t1 -2r and +10 +4 -4t2 -2r)

r: -2 for Rapid Shot
t1: -4 for attacking with two weapons, reduced to -2 with TWF feat
t2: -4 for attacking with two weapons, not reduced by TWF

... or various other combinations.

-Hyp.

 

[Gaiden]

Hyp.

While I allow all of the combo's you suggested several are disallowed by a strict interpretation of the rules: any options that involve throwing the dagger that the attack that the twf off hand attack offers is disallowed. How I understand it to work is that while making a full attack, a character can make one off hand MELEE attack while TWF (with the appropriate penalties per feats) and one extra ranged attack (with either hand - however, if you are not ambidexterous this could be suboptimal to do with your offhand). It is not clear whether your mainhand attacks have to be designated as one type or can be intermixed. I don't think the rules prevent you from mixing those attacks and as such I allow them to be intermixed.

 

[Murrdox]

Well... from the SRD on fighting with two weapons...

If a normal character (i.e. a character without the multiattack and/or multidexterity feats) wields a second weapon (fights two handed), that character can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. Fighting in this way is very hard, however, and the character suffers a -6 penalty for regular attacks with the first hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with a other hand. A character can reduce these stiff penalties in three ways:

Nowhere does it say that the extra attack granted by weilding two weapons has to be a melee attack. So, you could wield two daggers, two darts, two throwing axes, etc...

SO... I guess technically I'd allow two weapon fighting and rapid shot to stack, as Hypersmurf has outlined. Even though both require full-round actions, I don't see why both can't be used simultaneously.

two weapon fighting simply grants you an extra attack if you have two weapons.

rapid shot gives you an extra ranged attack, and does not specify that other attacks that round have to ALSO be ranged attacks - I'm still not sure if this ruling is actually as the rule is intended, or if it's "loopholing"... but it sorta makes sense to me, so I'd let it stand.

Thus, just like Hypersmurf had said... someone with a +10/+5 BAB with ambidextry, two weapon fighting, and rapid shot, with no other modifiers could:

First attack with main-hand dagger (melee) +6 (+10 BAB -2 rapid shot, -2 two weapons)

Second attack with main-hand dagger (melee) +1 (+5 BAB -2 rapid shot, -2 two weapons)

Attack with off-hand dagger (melee) +6 (+10 BAB -2 rapid shot, -2 two weapons)

Throw the main-hand dagger (ranged) +6 (+10 BAB -2 rapid shot, -2 two weapons)




I'm not sure if my math is any easier to understand (or correct for that matter), but it took me a few minutes to understand Hypersmurf's chart, so this is me making a sad attempt at simplifying it.