Players stuck is 2ed

KaeYoss said:
It's like old people: They always like the old times better, when there was war and everyone starved, and when your life expectancy was worse and a lot of maladies weren't curable, and you only had 2 TV-channels to choose from. They are used to limitations and can't cope with the freedom they have.

Hhmmm... I kind of respect old people's choices and 1st Edition Hard Core veterans have a good point when they say they prefer 1st Edition. (I don't agree but its a valid choice.)

Unfortunately 2nd Editon and even Skills and Powers have less staying power. I find it impossible to defend the position of this player. 2E wasn't good and skills and powers was a good patch... but a patch nonetheless.

Tell him he either plays 3E or 3.5E or he needs to find some archaic 2E leftover group.
 

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Spell Casters were better.

He constantly makes comparisons between 2E and 3E? How on Earth can he find something favorable?

I think in general Spell Casters where better in 2E vs 3E.

The spell selection for 2E was much wider, so mages and priests had a much wider variation in 2E. The priest spheres in 2E had more interesting stuff then the spheres in 3E. Things like Numbers, Law, Chaos, and Travel all enhanced the priest and ment you could have more then one priest in the party without feeling like you were stepping on eachothers toes.


Mages had a much better spell selection as well. The lists of spells available seems very small to me and is very restrictive. All wizards now feel like carbon copies to me. In 2E, the mages had lots of variation and their scope of abilities was wide. I never felt bad in 2E when someone failed Magic Missle or Fireball. I knew they had lots of other cool spells to choose from and they would use this as a launching point to create an interesting character.

I think the durations of spells in 3E has had a negative impact on the usefullness of wizards. In 3E wizards spend more time casting defensive spells in combat then acting to solve the situation. Round 1, I cast mage armor. Round 2, I cast shield. Round 3, I cast invis. Round 4, oh it's over, I guess I pass. In 2E, the mages would launch into an offensive barrage on round 1, knowing that they had already cast armor and stoneskin, and would be fine for a round or two if a biggie closed with them.

It also meant that I never flinched on casting spells into the party as a surprise action. Now, the party needs to be warned with a storm trooper like shot so the know action has started and they can get prepared.

I know that is a flavor difference and a lot of GM's like to watch their mages scramble at the beginning of combat. But, you asked what people liked, and I liked have mages that were active and dangerous from round 1.

The durations of spells in 3.5E is also totally off putting. They WAY over compensated for the use of some spells. Invisibility, a staple of D&D since it's inception is practically useless. The stat bump spells don't last nearly long enough. The assault on durations can stop any time now. Really. My players now joke that any usefull spell will be reduced to 1 second or less per level for 4E. If as a GM you are challenged by the power of Magic Missle, hang up your dice today! Wait, getting on to a different rant.


Multiclassing worked way better in 2E. In 3E the multiclass spell caster is so much less powerful then the straight caster that feels like you are a second class character. In 2E there was a nice payoff of being a behind, but not too far behind. In 2E I always had a nice mix of multiclass casters and single class casters. In 3E I get a constant stream of players that want to play multiclass fighters/rogue/ranger, but won't multiclass into any of the major spell casting classes (Priest, Bard, Druid, Sorcer, or Wizard). When I do get this to happen, that player suffers in comparison to their straight class caster companions and the multiclass fighters.

I guess in the end analysis, in 2E I never had trouble getting power players to play a mix of spell casters and fighting types. In 3E, all the power gamers are fighters or fighters that use the class priest to be more powerful. The variation in the party is gone and I just get cookie cutter casters.
 

Maybe the solution, lord_banus, is for Kamosa to take your 2E-fantasising player off your hands so they can enjoy a 2E Spellcaster game together! :D
 

KaeYoss said:
I know a couple of players who prefer 2e because you can't play a non-human paladin there.

I believe my old DM had a similar mentality.

Some of the reasons he "nerfed" the rules, in my opinion, were based on his "2nd" edition mentality:

1. You couldn't buy or make magic items in 2nd Ed. (well you could, but it was REALLY hard), so he made it somewhat the same in 3rd/3.5. No downtime to make magic items, if you did want to buy one, it was at least 3x the market price. And if you sold one, it was only for .25 of what is was worth.

2. For awhile, he thought sneak attack and back stab were the same thing, and couldn't conceive why rogues could get to sneak attack just because they were flanking. He could imagine why such a thing could be possible, because, in his mind, he reasoned that someone being flanked would never let themselves be in such a situation and if they were, they would always look at both sides. Resulted in only 1 sneak attack during a flank.

3. Only Paladin's should get Divine Grace. I don't know if this is truly from the "2nd edition" mentality, but it seemed along the same lines of "Only Humans should be Paladins" kind-of-thinking. He always complained that Divine Grace was too powerful.
 

kamosa said:
I think in general Spell Casters where better in 2E vs 3E.

The spell selection for 2E was much wider, so mages and priests had a much wider variation in 2E. The priest spheres in 2E had more interesting stuff then the spheres in 3E. Things like Numbers, Law, Chaos, and Travel all enhanced the priest and ment you could have more then one priest in the party without feeling like you were stepping on eachothers toes.


Mages had a much better spell selection as well. The lists of spells available seems very small to me and is very restrictive. All wizards now feel like carbon copies to me. In 2E, the mages had lots of variation and their scope of abilities was wide. I never felt bad in 2E when someone failed Magic Missle or Fireball. I knew they had lots of other cool spells to choose from and they would use this as a launching point to create an interesting character.

I think the durations of spells in 3E has had a negative impact on the usefullness of wizards. In 3E wizards spend more time casting defensive spells in combat then acting to solve the situation. Round 1, I cast mage armor. Round 2, I cast shield. Round 3, I cast invis. Round 4, oh it's over, I guess I pass. In 2E, the mages would launch into an offensive barrage on round 1, knowing that they had already cast armor and stoneskin, and would be fine for a round or two if a biggie closed with them.

It also meant that I never flinched on casting spells into the party as a surprise action. Now, the party needs to be warned with a storm trooper like shot so the know action has started and they can get prepared.

I know that is a flavor difference and a lot of GM's like to watch their mages scramble at the beginning of combat. But, you asked what people liked, and I liked have mages that were active and dangerous from round 1.

The durations of spells in 3.5E is also totally off putting. They WAY over compensated for the use of some spells. Invisibility, a staple of D&D since it's inception is practically useless. The stat bump spells don't last nearly long enough. The assault on durations can stop any time now. Really. My players now joke that any usefull spell will be reduced to 1 second or less per level for 4E. If as a GM you are challenged by the power of Magic Missle, hang up your dice today! Wait, getting on to a different rant.


Multiclassing worked way better in 2E. In 3E the multiclass spell caster is so much less powerful then the straight caster that feels like you are a second class character. In 2E there was a nice payoff of being a behind, but not too far behind. In 2E I always had a nice mix of multiclass casters and single class casters. In 3E I get a constant stream of players that want to play multiclass fighters/rogue/ranger, but won't multiclass into any of the major spell casting classes (Priest, Bard, Druid, Sorcer, or Wizard). When I do get this to happen, that player suffers in comparison to their straight class caster companions and the multiclass fighters.

I guess in the end analysis, in 2E I never had trouble getting power players to play a mix of spell casters and fighting types. In 3E, all the power gamers are fighters or fighters that use the class priest to be more powerful. The variation in the party is gone and I just get cookie cutter casters.

Man, the party never stopped with 2e, with all its invinsible casters, multi-class characters and what not. Limitations? Those were only for character gen; you know because what really freaks people out balance wise is the thought of an elf druid and dwarf mage. THE WORLD IN MY HEAD WOULD EXPLODE!

No, all those wacky things should be reserved for combat, the place where there should be no consequences, because it isn't like we're talking about life and death here. You haven't seen fear until you've seen a dwarf magic user ambling towards the local pub. I mean, what would combat be without invincible magic users? A game? Dramatic?
 
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jasamcarl said:
No, all those wacky things should be reserved for combat, the place where there should be no consequences, because it isn't like we're talking about life and death here. You haven't seen fear until you've seen a dwarf magic user ambling towards the local pub.

Well, we actually killed all the racial restrictions in character creation as well. So, we had more then one dwarven mage and elven paladin in the party. The horror.
 

lord_banus said:
I have a dilema that some of you may have faced.

I have an old school player who is constantly comparing the latest editions of dnd to 2nd edition skills and powers. Unfortunately I am the kind of person who wants to please everyone but he will not break out of the old mentality. It is starting to become annoying and bringing the whole game down.

I dont want to toss him out but I need to do something to show him that 3,3.5 edition can be so much more.

Has anyone else encountered this problem and got some way I can improve the situation.

Thanks
We have 2e griper in my group too. The problem was solved when

a: we agreed to let him run 2e Dark Sun sometime. While the preference was for 3e Darksun we agreed that Athas was cool enough for us to put up with 2e

b: he realized we weren't going to roll back-- no how no way -- Other than the specialty priests mentioned here everything is better in 3e YMMV

Now he plays 3e with the group (Ironically I am not in it) and takes his revenge by making hackmatic adjustable Rangers

To let him vent his spleen at Dragonsfoot It has a 2e and an edition wars forum for all his griping needs.
Afterword ask him to either play and not to disrupt the game or if he rally hates 3e well-- find a replacement. No one should play unless they are having a good time
 

kamosa said:
Well, we actually killed all the racial restrictions in character creation as well. So, we had more then one dwarven mage and elven paladin in the party. The horror.

Unfortunatly, class race restrictions pretty well embody the AD&D designer think that confused rules aesthetic (i.e. the attempt to simulate or evoke the quintessential D&D world through many a stupid rules exceptions, arbitrary restrictions, intentional imbalances, and what not) with rules functionality (the ability of the rules to make for a good game over repeated plays). Not to say that 3.0/3.5 have fully moved beyond this, but they've been moving in the right direction
 
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kamosa said:
(ranting and trolling about)
Sure. Let's go back to 2e where wizards were omnipotent, invulnerable masters of everything. And at the same time as ranting that the wizards were nerved (i.e. they are balanced now), we rant that clerics are way to good now (but at the same time they're crap now)
 

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