Please Review: Barrowshire Lore Keeper

[FreeXenon]

[topic]Prestige Class Review[/topic]
I am a player in the new Orc Jager PBP game and I am thinking of submitting a prestige class that I have created to the DM for approval. I think I have done fairly well and would like your advice on this. My character is a halfling bard 1 named Franky. I have not had a chance to look at precedents from source books, so if you find one for good or ill, I would definitely like to know.

Prestige Class and Feat[sblock]
[h1]Barrrowshire Lore Keeper (Prestige Class)[/h1]

Barrowshire Lore Keepers are dedicated to the pursuit and use of knowledge. The shirefolk that walk this path typically pick a subject area to specialize and then do everything they can to learn as much about it as possible. Often this involves trying to find out some fact or item of significance that is hidden away in ruins or in some estate. Their pursuit and understanding of their subject area(s) gives them unique insight into the world and the way that it works.

Lore Keepers are most often found in the company of others that are helping them to acquire knowledge or artifacts of significance to their lore. Lore Keepers know that they cannot be good at everything and that they need help. Help from those that can heal, sneak, fight and other things that they cannot. They use their bardic music abilities, knowledge, and spells to help their companions. Their more aggressive spell list and understanding greatly helps their chance of survival.

Hit Die: d8

[h2]Prerequisites[/h2]
Race: Halfling
Alignment: Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, Neutral
Skills: any 2 Knowledges 8 ranks, Perform (Oratory) 8 ranks
Any 2 other Bard skills at 8 ranks
Must speak Commmon, Halfling, and Draconic
Be able to cast 2nd level Bard spells which must include:
Comprehend Languages (1) and Cure Moderate Wounds (2)
Feats: Barrowshire Lore Keeper* and Obscure Lore (Complete Adventurer)
Special: Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music, Born in Barrowshire

[h2]Table[/h2]
Saves
Lvl BAB F/R/W Special
1 +0 +0/+2/+2 Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Lore Keeper Spell List +1 spell caster level
2 +1 +0/+3/+3 Lore Keeper Knowledge 1/day +1 spell caster level
3 +2 +1/+3/+3 Lore Keeper's Song +1 spell caster level
4 +3 +1/+4/+4 Lore Keeper Training +1 spell caster level
5 +3 +1/+4/+4 Lore Keeper Insight 1/day +1 spell caster level

[h2]Class Skills[/h2]

Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier

The Lore Keeper's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are:
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (All taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha) Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex)

[h2]Class Features[/h2]
All of the following are class features of the Lore Keeper:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Lore Keeper gain no proficiency with any weapons or armors.

Bardic Music: Your Lore Keeper levels stack with your Bard levels for determining your effective bard level.

Bardic Knowledge: Your Lore Keeper levels stack with your Bard levels for determining your Bardic Knowledge.

Lore Keeper Spell List: Barrowshire Lore Keepers are adventurous and determined and have found the need for other spells to help them in their endeavors. When you gain new bard spells you gain the following spells automatically in addition to your normal list of spells known. If you already have these spells there is no benefit for that level.
1 Mage Armor (Wiz 1)
2 Explosive Runes (Wiz 3)
3 Glyph of Warding (Cler 3)
4 Prying Eyes (Wiz 5)
5 Regenerate (Cler 7 - Strong for level)
6 Vision (Wiz 7)

Lore Keeper's Knowledge:A Lore Keeper may reroll any knowledge check and add his Lore Keeper Class Level to the roll. He may choose to do this after the result of a roll is known.

Lore Keeper's Song:The Lore keeper may select a Bardic Music Ability from the Bard class or a feat that gives a new Bardic Music Ability that he quilifies for (must have Bardic Music and Perform as requisites).

Lore Keeper Training: You may select from any of the following:
Bardic Feat: Any feat that has Bardic Music and Perform as a requisite, and that you meet the requisites for, or from the following: Battle Caster, Combat Casting, Endurance, Extra Bardic Music, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, Iron Will, Lightening Reflexes, Practiced Spell Caster, Weapon Finesse

Lore Keeper's Insight:
A Lore Keeper may reroll, or force an oppenent ot reroll, one roll that directly affects the Lore Keeper and add or subtract his Lore Keeper Class Level to the roll. He may choose to do this after the result of a roll is known.




[h1]Feat[/h1]

[h2]Barrowshire Lore Keeper (Regional - Barrowshire)[/h2]
Prerequisites: Halfling born in Barrowshire, Bardic Knowledge, Int 13, 4 ranks in any two Knowledges, Perform (Oratory) 4 ranks
Benefit:
Knowledge and Perform are always class skills for you. You are considered to have 1/2 rank in all knowledge skills that you do not have ranks in and gain a +1 insight bonus to all Knowledge Skill checks.
Special: Must be taken at first level
[/sblock]

Some of you may remember the prestige class insanity that I submitted a long time ago named Cyran Steel Raptors. This is nothing like that. The Lore Keeper is but a paltry 2 pages (and a feat) instead of the 72 page Raptor , so do not be afraid.

This has been cross-posted on the WOTC Boards

 

[FreeXenon]

Possible Balance Problems

The minimum level might be too low for the abilities gained. Minimum might need to be 7th adjusted by raising the minimum ranks to 10. I am hoping that 5th will be OK considering the extensive prerequisites.

Hit Dice are at d8 to make them a little more resilient. I may have to reduce them back down to d6.

Lore Keeper's Spell List: I have that added to their spells known - might be too much. May need to change to 'Add to the bard class spell list' instead.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You might get better answers in the House Rule forum.

 

[FreeXenon]

Moderator, Mederator

Good Call! Thanks!!

Moderator, Moderator
How powerful are thee

Thy post and thy thread
Wieldeth with might and prudence

From Rules and House it has wandered far
Moveth this stray lamb back to its flock

Moderator, Moderator
How powerful are thee

 

[FreeXenon]

Bump!!

Thanks Henry for the Move!!

BUMP!!

 

[Lord Morte]

The feat is seems balanced on me. I'd suggest lowering the prereq ranks in Perform to 2 and eliminating the bardic knowledge prereq in order to open the feat up to others. Might make your DM happier/more willing to allow it if it doesn't look like a shiny just for you.

The PrC looks like a good start. There are my thoughts:

Lore Keeper Spell list - Too disparate, meaning like it looks like a grab bag of useful spells with Regenerate and Mage armour look especially out of place. A clearer theme and/or stronger justification would be better. Plus it isn't clear when you learn each spell.

Lore Keeper Knowledge - I'd drop the reroll (or make it once per day per level in PrC OR only allow in the Lore Keeper's speciality) and shift this ability to first level, moving the Spell list to second. Why? It is seems like the keynote ability of the class so it should be accessible at first. BTW is the bonus supposed to be added to bardic knowledge checks, as that AND the 1st level bardic knowledge ability would be too powerful.

Lore Keeper Music - Already gets new bardic music effect from the 1st level bardic music and the 4th level Lore Keeper training provides bonus feats. This ability just looks blah, perhaps a unique Lore Keeper bardic music effect would be better, such as doubling the effect of inspire competence in regards to Int-based skills?

Lore Keeper Insight - Powerful but it is a final level ability. I like it

The idea of the class is very good and supports my idea of Samwise Gamgee as a bard I'll go examine this Steel Raptor PrC when I have some more free time.

 

[FreeXenon]

The feat is seems balanced on me. I'd suggest lowering the prereq ranks in Perform to 2 and eliminating the bardic knowledge prereq in order to open the feat up to others. Might make your DM happier/more willing to allow it if it doesn't look like a shiny just for you.

Fair enough - Bardic Knowledge dropped - 2 ranks or 4 ranks - OK 2 ranks it is.

Lore Keeper Spell list - Too disparate, meaning like it looks like a grab bag of useful spells with Regenerate and Mage armour look especially out of place. A clearer theme and/or stronger justification would be better. Plus it isn't clear when you learn each spell.

You are right it is kind of a grab bag. The theme is kind of adventurer/knowledge/book related. It is supposed to give the Bard spell list a little more of an edge and versatility with out infringing on the primary casters' role. Glyph based protection/trap/damage spells - little used spells (atleast in my experience). Mage Armor - protection. Two Information/Knowledge spells, and a healing spell, which by this level the cleric already has heal and Regenerate sees little use (again in my experience).

I am giving them some mostly little used spells to give them additional versatility without infringing. Prying Eyes, Vision, and Regenerate are inline with the existing Bard motif of information and some healing. Giving them the Heal spell which is actually a level lower would be seriously broken.

Lore Keeper Knowledge - I'd drop the reroll (or make it once per day per level in PrC OR only allow in the Lore Keeper's speciality) and shift this ability to first level, moving the Spell list to second. Why? It is seems like the keynote ability of the class so it should be accessible at first. BTW is the bonus supposed to be added to bardic knowledge checks, as that AND the 1st level bardic knowledge ability would be too powerful.

Once per day per level of prestige class. I like the idea, however I do worry about that becoming too powerful - 5 rerolls a day? Hmm.... Knowledge skills can be very powerful in the hands of a canny player and a generous DM. I will give it a try.

I had considered this affecting Bardic Knowledge that as well, but I specifically excluded it due to bardic knowlege being very open ended. I figure requiring Obscure Lore should kind of cover an increase in generally obscure knowledge. Plus, if you cannot find something out with 5 rerolls in knowledges... Somethings man was not meant to know...

Moving it to the first level Duh! Makes sense, what was I thinking. Done.

Lore Keeper Music - Already gets new bardic music effect from the 1st level bardic music... and the 4th level Lore Keeper training provides bonus feats. This ability just looks blah, perhaps a unique Lore Keeper bardic music effect would be better, such as doubling the effect of inspire competence in regards to Int-based skills?

They do not gain a new music effect with the Lore Keeper's Bardic Music - this only means that their Lore Keeper Levels stack with bard levels for the purposes of determining their effective bard level and uses per day. No new music for them. I did however add 'and number of uses per day' to the verbage to further clarify his ability.

Lore Keepers Song: I had thought about creating a new Song but I tremble at the thought. I would like to come up with some thing that strikes me. This abillity allows them to choose a new song which is really needed for the teamwork/Bard flavor.

Lore Keeper Training allows them to expand upon their Bardic Abilities or become more martially oriented, again, without stepping too much on the meat and potatoes of the warrior classes. Again. versatility without infringing.

Lore Keeper Insight - Powerful but it is a final level ability. I like it

Groovey!

I'll go examine this Steel Raptor PrC when I have some more free time.

I would not do that. Thanks though!! The character that the work was done for is dead and the document is 70+ pages. If you would still like to and give me feedback that would still be wonderful, but I think you might have better things to do.

Thanks for you time and comments. I do appreciate it!!

 

[FreeXenon]

Barrowshire Lore Keeper with changes

Prestige Class and Feat[sblock]
[h1]Barrrowshire Lore Keeper (Prestige Class)[/h1]

Barrowshire Lore Keepers are dedicated to the pursuit and use of knowledge. The shirefolk that walk this path typically pick a subject area to specialize and then do everything they can to learn as much about it as possible. Often this involves trying to find out some fact or item of significance that is hidden away in ruins or in some estate. Their pursuit and understanding of their subject area(s) gives them unique insight into the world and the way that it works.

Lore Keepers are most often found in the company of others that are helping them to acquire knowledge or artifacts of significance to their lore. Lore Keepers know that they cannot be good at everything and that they need help. Help from those that can heal, sneak, fight and other things that they cannot. They use their bardic music abilities, knowledge, and spells to help their companions. Their more aggressive spell list and understanding greatly helps their chance of survival.

Hit Die: d6

[h2]Prerequisites[/h2]
Race: Halfling
Alignment: Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, Neutral
Skills: any 2 Knowledges 8 ranks, Perform (Oratory) 8 ranks
Any 2 other Bard skills at 8 ranks
Must speak Commmon, Halfling, and Draconic
Be able to cast 2nd level Bard spells which must include:
Comprehend Languages (1) and Cure Moderate Wounds (2)
Feats: Barrowshire Lore Keeper*(see below) and Obscure Lore (Complete Adventurer)
Special: Bardic Knowledge, Bardic Music, Born in Barrowshire

[h2]Table[/h2]
Saves
Lvl BAB F/R/W Special
1 +0 +0/+2/+2 Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Lore Keeper Knowledge +1 spell caster level
2 +1 +0/+3/+3 Lore Keeper Spell List +1 spell caster level
3 +2 +1/+3/+3 Lore Keeper's Song +1 spell caster level
4 +3 +1/+4/+4 Lore Keeper Training +1 spell caster level
5 +3 +1/+4/+4 Lore Keeper Insight 1/day +1 spell caster level

[h2]Class Skills[/h2]

Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier

The Lore Keeper's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are:
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (All taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha) Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex)

[h2]Class Features[/h2]
All of the following are class features of the Lore Keeper:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Lore Keeper gain no proficiency with any weapons or armors.

Bardic Music: Your Lore Keeper levels stack with your Bard levels for determining your effective bard level and number of uses per day.

Bardic Knowledge: Your Lore Keeper levels stack with your Bard levels for determining your Bardic Knowledge.

Lore Keeper's Knowledge:A Lore Keeper may reroll any knowledge check and add his Lore Keeper class level to the roll, a number of times per day equal to his Lore Keeper class Level. He may choose to do this after the result of a roll is known. A Lore Keep gains a use per day per Lore Keeper level if he has 8 + Lore Keeper level or more ranks in a knowledge skill.

Lore Keeper Spell List: Barrowshire Lore Keepers are adventurous and determined and have found the need for other spells to help them in their endeavors. You add the following spells to your list of bard spells and may learn them as normal.
1 Mage Armor (Wiz 1)
2 Explosive Runes (Wiz 3)
3 Glyph of Warding (Cler 3)
4 Prying Eyes (Wiz 5)
5 Regenerate (Cler 7 - Strong for level)
6 Vision (Wiz 7)

Lore Keeper's Song:The Lore keeper may select a Bardic Music Ability from the Bard class or a feat that gives a new Bardic Music Ability that he quilifies for (must have Bardic Music and Perform as requisites).

Lore Keeper Training: You may select from any of the following:
Bardic Feat: Any feat that has Bardic Music and Perform as a requisite, and that you meet the requisites for, or from the following: Battle Caster, Combat Casting, Endurance, Extra Bardic Music, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, Iron Will, Lightening Reflexes, Practiced Spell Caster, Weapon Finesse

Lore Keeper's Insight:
A Lore Keeper with 13 or more ranks in a knowledge skill may reroll, or force an oppenent ot reroll, one roll that directly affects the Lore Keeper and add or subtract his Lore Keeper Class Level to the roll. He may choose to do this after the result of a roll is known.




[h1]Feat[/h1]

[h2]Barrowshire Lore Keeper (Regional - Barrowshire)[/h2]
Prerequisites: Halfling born in Barrowshire, Int 13, 4 ranks in any two Knowledges, Perform (Oratory) 2 ranks
Benefit:
Knowledge and Perform are always class skills for you. You are considered to have 1/2 rank in all knowledge skills that you do not have ranks in and gain a +1 insight bonus to all Knowledge Skill checks.
Special: Must be taken at first level
[/sblock]

My concerns are d8 hit dice and Lore Keeper Kowledge being upto 5 times a day and a +5 to the check. Maybe the +5 is too much?

 

[FreeXenon]

Arcane Disciple (CD)

Inlight of the Arcane Disciple feat from the Complete Divine I am giong to change the Lore Keeper Spell List to be:

You add the following spells to your list of bard spells and may learn them as normal.

I have changed the above stat block to reflect this.

 

[Lord Morte]

Quick question: Is this for a 3.0 edition game? Because Mage Armour strikes as pointless if you can strap on magical chain shirts as the bard can in 3.5.

My concerns now are d8 hit dice

Then drop them to d6s or d4s. The bard only has d6s anyway and the background doesn't really support the improved resilience of a larger Hit Dice.

Once per day per level of prestige class. I like the idea, however I do worry about that becoming too powerful - 5 rerolls a day? Hmm.... Knowledge skills can be very powerful in the hands of a canny player and a generous DM. I will give it a try.

Or they can be pretty weak with a miserly DM. It is a feature of game style. But the trick is whether or not the player chooses to use the reroll or horde it for later, so limited rerolls serve this best.

They do not gain a new music effect with the Lore Keeper's Bardic Music - this only means that their Lore Keeper Levels stack with bard levels for the purposes of determining their effective bard level and uses per day. No new music for them. I did however add 'and number of uses per day' to the verbage to further clarify his ability.

Clarity is good In that case Lore Keeper's Song is a pretty useful ability. As for the teamwork song idea, perhaps increasing the bonus provided by aid another checks is a way to go?

Thanks for you time and comments. I do appreciate it!!

Not a problem.