D&D 5E Power Gamers and Balance - How to handle

[FrogReaver]

Why did I let him in when I dont let anyone in.

I must be crazy, he reached into his pocket and pulled out that snake tongue and suddenly everything he said made perfect sense.

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He didn't pull out anything with subtle spell.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

He didn't pull out anything with subtle spell.

Subtle spell removes the verbal and somatic component it does NOT remove the material component.

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[FrogReaver]

Yep and just so happens to be one that allows your power gaming sorcerer to thrive in.

Enough said.

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It just requires a different paradigm for what you use it for. Instead of using suggestion for my own benefit. in your campaign I'll just use those countermeasures against the NPC's and take out our enemies by using suggestion for their benefit. Suddenly everyone thinks my enemy is the sorcerer casting suggestion or that he knows who is. Easy...

 

[Satyrn]

Nope, it pushes them to not focus.

A persuasion roll to get the guild accountant a copy of last weeks revenues succeeded, you think, he said yes and told you he would make a copy tomorrow and deliver it to you tomorrow night.

At this point a smart balanced character make an INSIGHT check to see if the guild accountant is being honest or if he is going to walk out of this room and report you straight away to the guildmaster.

To me Insight should be as important in social encounters as persuasion and it has the benefit of not allowing players to just min/Max via Charisma based skills and dump on Wisdom.

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That would be smart play, I agree.

But I'm talking about all the situations where you've decided success isn't possible and yet tell me to roll a check anyway. I'd be bound to encounter several times when I've rolled 20+ on those persuasion checks and still not get what I was after. So then I'd be thinking I need to get a 25+, and I'm gonna find ways to pump up that check.

Making that Insight check to see if I succeed is going to tell me I failed my persuasion, which helps in that situation. But it still leaves me with the lesson that I need to pump up my Persuasion check.

And besides, since you're teaching me that I need a high number on Persuasion, I'm going to think I need an equally high number on Insight to succeed there.

 

[FrogReaver]

Subtle spell removes the verbal and somatic component it does NOT remove the material component.

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So I wouldn't have to pull the snake tongue out right? I'm not required to do anything with my hands or make any gestures.

 

[FrogReaver]

It an expression taken from spying movie.
Follow the benefits.
Who benefits all this weird behavior in town?

Ah. If that's what they do then my enemies are screwed. They'll be the ones benefiting from all the weird behavior I'm causing.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

That would be smart play, I agree.

But I'm talking about all the situations where you've decided success isn't possible and yet tell me to roll a check anyway. I'd be bound to encounter several times when I've rolled 20+ on those persuasion checks and still not get what I was after. So then I'd be thinking I need to get a 25+, and I'm gonna find ways to pump up that check.

Making that Insight check to see if I succeed is going to tell me I failed my persuasion, which helps in that situation. But it still leaves me with the lesson that I need to pump up my Persuasion check.

And besides, since you're teaching me that I need a high number on Persuasion, I'm going to think I need an equally high number on Insight to succeed there.

Ever watch Critical Role, as the DM Matt Mercier has said on more than one occasion "you can always make a roll".

The problem with telling you when a roll is straight up impossible can break the game on occasion. Imagine a situation where the party encounters what they think is a mook, in reality it is a very high level NPC there to help them. He is one of those Elminster types that likes to guide others instead of act. He also has high enough stats that no one in the party has any chance of using Persuasion or Intimidation on him. Would break the game if they try to bribe him using Persuasion and I tell them sorry what you are doing is impossible don't even roll.

Basically in social situations in DnD you do not always know you are trying to do the impossible. It is the nature of social skills. It is obvious you cannot make an Athletics check to jump straight up 50 feet. It is not as obvious that you cannot bribe the head of the Kings personal guard who just happens to be his bastard son, a fact that will come out late. So when you try to bribe him you fail, it would would kill the situation if I told you not to bother rolling because you cannot succeed.

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[Satyrn]

Cool.

I was just telling you how I'd react if I found myself failing checks after rolling 20+. I'd be thinking I need to up my powergame.

Your players might be thinking the same thing.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ever watch Critical Role, as the DM Matt Mercier has said on more than one occasion "you can always make a roll".

The problem with telling you when a roll is straight up impossible can break the game on occasion. Imagine a situation where the party encounters what they think is a mook, in reality it is a very high level NPC there to help them. He is one of those Elminster types that likes to guide others instead of act. He also has high enough stats that no one in the party has any chance of using Persuasion or Intimidation on him. Would break the game if they try to bribe him using Persuasion and I tell them sorry what you are doing is impossible don't even roll.

Basically in social situations in DnD you do not always know you are trying to do the impossible. It is the nature of social skills. It is obvious you cannot make an Athletics check to jump straight up 50 feet. It is not as obvious that you cannot bribe the head of the Kings personal guard who just happens to be his bastard son, a fact that will come out late. So when you try to bribe him you fail, it would would kill the situation if I told you not to bother rolling because you cannot succeed.

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And that adds what exactly? What good does keeping the players from knowing if they succeeded? They still won't know why they didn't succeed. They still won't know he's the bastard son etc. They probly just think he takes his job way to seriously.

 

[Greg K]

And that adds what exactly? What good does keeping the players from knowing if they succeeded? .

What does it add? How about the players think that their characters have succeeded, follow through with whatever plan they had in mind, and are surprised to find out that things have gone sideways and the characters are in trouble which the need to get out of it...now? Isn't things going sideways t how a lot of adventure fiction works for the characters involved?