Practical Metamagic, worth it?

Stalker0 said:
I think throwing that on empower is a big deal. Quicken at +3 is pretty good, but its still fairly limiting. But empower at +1, that's gives you a whole lot of flexibility to deal with. Keep in mind that while a 4th level spell might have a 15 dice cap, are you 15th level? If not, then an empowered 3rd level spell (now 4th) does more damage on average than your 4th level spell, but also at a cost of -1 to the DC.
Other than flame strike, which only druids get, there are no 1d6 per level 4th level spells capping at 15 pre-splat.

And the 1 less DC is not that big of a deal with all the splat material touch attack spells floating about. Scorching ray's surpassing of the 1d6 per level damage cap gets an evil eye from a few folks, empowering it at a 3rd level slot is pushing it.

And given a lot of folks interpret empower as affecting ray of enfeeblements [1d6+1 per 2 caster levels, max 5]+50% rather than [1d6+50%]+1 per 2 caster levels, max 5, that just made an already brutal spell even worse.
 

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HeapThaumaturgist said:
Actually it does have a minimum of +1 increase to the spell level.

Maybe I'm missing the boat on metamagic, I've never before played anybody that used it. All the Wizards I've played, I took item creation feats instead of metamagic. It always seemed like you could get the same umph for a lower price ... for instance, Empowered Fireball is about the same as a 15 dice fireball ... but that's a 5th level slot and there are many similar AoE spells with a 15 dice cap which are 4th level spells.

I'm currently torn between Sculpt and Practical Metamagic.

--fje
Some metamagic feats are better than others. Heighten Spell is a great one to take around level 12 or so for a sorcerer, because suddenly you're getting all this extra mileage out of your low-level spells known because you can ramp them up using higher level spell slots. Sculpt is the bomb at low- to mid-levels. I like to use it on spells like glitterdust and web, which otherwise have areas that are annoying to place. Empower and maximize generally work better with spells that don't have saving throws, since the DCs don't increase even though the spell slots do.

Chain spell is a weird one. It only works well if you have a lot of (target: one creature) spells already, but if you do it's a good candidate for Practical Metamagic. Energy Substitution and Admixture don't seem to fit your character concept, and that's probably a good thing, because they're terrible. Substitution is barely worth a feat, and Admixture really suffers from low DCs due to the +4 spell slot cost. It's a pretty good BBEG feat, though, especially when combined with Greater Spell Focus. Quicken is golden, of course, especially if you lower its cost later.

I think that the issue with Empower is this: Take your empowered fireball, which does the equivalent of 15d6 damage. Compare that to a cone of cold, which has a 15d6 cap. You're saying you know about 4th level spells that have 15d6 caps, and I can't think of any, so let's say, for the sake of argument, that CoC is 4th level. Assume you're a high enough level sorcerer to cast an empowered fireball: 10th. You do 10d6 damage with a normal fireball, and 10d6 damage with a CoC. You do 15d6 damage with the empowered fireball. There's the difference. Normally, you'd have to be 15th level to do 15d6 damage. Once you're 14th level, you'll be able to empower your 4th level spells, so you'll do about 21d6 damage with them. If you're willing to burn high-level slots, you'll be doing more damage than someone your level has any right to be able to do. If we think of CoC as being a 5th level spell, the advantage of an empowered fireball is even more impressive. You can do 10d6 with the unempowered CoC, or 15d6 with the empowered fireball. If you can also sculpt, you can wait until 12th level and blast off cone-sculpted 15d6 fireballs or do 12d6 CoCs.

Metamagic is sorcerer love, especially if you're using the option to ditch your familiar for quick metamagic.

Where's Thanee to proselytize about sorcerer metamagic?
 


HeapThaumaturgist said:
Right now the feat loadout I'm playing with is:

Empower Spell
Quicken Spell
Sculpt Spell
Practical Metamagic (Empower)
Force Needle

--fje

Looks good. I assume you're a 12th level human? What's Force Needle?
 

HeapThaumaturgist said:
Actually it does have a minimum of +1 increase to the spell level.

Maybe I'm missing the boat on metamagic, I've never before played anybody that used it. All the Wizards I've played, I took item creation feats instead of metamagic. It always seemed like you could get the same umph for a lower price ... for instance, Empowered Fireball is about the same as a 15 dice fireball ... but that's a 5th level slot and there are many similar AoE spells with a 15 dice cap which are 4th level spells.

I'm currently torn between Sculpt and Practical Metamagic.

--fje
The Wizard is why. A Wizard has to choose, in advance, what metamagic to apply to a spell. At 8th, at the beginning of the day, Enervation and Polymorph look much more attractive than an Empowered Scorching Ray or an Extended Haste. In general, a higher-level spell is more useful than a metamagic'd lower-level spell (there are exceptions, however - an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, for instance.....).

The Sorcerer-8, on the other hand, on finding out that the Enervation he knows is worse than useless against the undead he's currently facing, can shrug and do the Empowered Scorching Ray on the spot, for 8d6*1.5 damage. While he's basically stuck with his feat choices and his spell known choices until he levels a time or two (Core, anyway), he's not stuck with what he decided to do today. A Heightened-to-3rd Charm Person is great when you don't have a Suggestion, for instance. Sure, Suggestion is better. But Charm Person will often get the job done (especially with Sorcerer's ability to make it a 3rd level spell on he fly with Heighten Spell, and the Sorcerer's Charisma check).
 
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Dr. Awkward said:
Looks good. I assume you're a 12th level human? What's Force Needle?

14th level Dragonwrought (Force) Kobold Sorcerer 10/Argent Savant 4.

Actually it's "Invisibile Needle" (I keep messing up the name). A reserve feat that allows you to produce little needles of force from Complete Mage.

--fje
 

HeapThaumaturgist said:
14th level Dragonwrought (Force) Kobold Sorcerer 10/Argent Savant 4.

Actually it's "Invisibile Needle" (I keep messing up the name). A reserve feat that allows you to produce little needles of force from Complete Mage.

--fje
Damn. That sounds like fun. Kobolds make for pretty good sorcerers, and they've got panache to boot.
 


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