Publishers that dislike d20 . . .

[Graf]

Yeah, and it clearly was just a rip off of [insert your favorite game here]. Oh, did I say rip off, sorry, I meant clever derivative...

Bitter much?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Bitter much?

Hey now, he was making a joke, as was Monte

 

[William Ronald]

Hey now, he was making a joke, as was Monte

Yes, and considering the debates on some topics in the past few months, very good jokes. (Indeed, I think Pramas and Monte both hammered the point home that game designers do need a good sense of humor and need not be at war with each other. )

As for publishers disliking D20 or a specific rule set, I think that much of it is about subjective taste. I have to confess that most of the games I play are D20 based, but I sometimes enjoy other rules systems. (For example, at the last EN World Chicago Gameday, I played in a Mutants and Masterminds game, a Buffy game, and ran an event using aspects of the D&D 3.5 and Arcana Unearthed rules.) To me, a large part of what makes any game fun is how everyone at the gaming table interacts with each other.

I think that actively disliking a rule system and publishing products strikes me as strange. I think one problem that BiggusGeekus identified is important: many players are reluctant to master multiple rules systems. So, D20 does have an advantage in that many gamers already are familar with D&D. It is a shorter transition to M&M or AU than to GURPS for most players. Unless a new rules system or a game offers something very appealing to players, or has a tie in to something that they like (such as a television show), many D&D players seem to want to stick to D20 rules.

Also, if a publisher is unfamilar with the D20 rules or disdainful of the rules, it can show in the quality of the product. Dragonlords of Melnibone by Chaosium was a product that tied into Michael Moorcock's Elric series and could have been very popular. However, the application of the rules was abysmal. I am not very familiar with Chaosium's products, but I thought that book was very poorly done -- despite good source materials and a fairly successful non D-20 Elric game. In the end, I think such products not only hurt the D20 market, but hurt the gaming industry as a whole. Plus, it can make the people at a company with a negative attitude seem petty. (No gamer, especially one considering a purchase, wants to feel that a publisher is looking down at them. So, hatred can be self-destructive.)

 

[kenobi65]

I think one problem that BiggusGeekus identified is important: many players are reluctant to master multiple rules systems.

Agreed. My gaming group are all huge Firefly / Serenity fans. When I told them that the Serenity RPG came out, but it wasn't d20, half of them outright rejected playing it then and there -- "I don't want to have to learn a whole new game."

 

[HinterWelt]

. . . but still publish d20/ogl products.

I've seen this happen in the past and wondered what people thought of that sort of attitude. In my opinion it's not difficult to spot products created by people that dislike d20 but I'm wondering if anyone even cares.

Personally, there are very few games that I dislike. I think it's the result of far, far too many games systems absorbed and played over the years. I'm not sure why but I can usually find something to take from almost any system (though there are a couple that I would never touch again).

I can't profess much love but I like runnign out the hack'n'slash every now and then. We just came out with/are coming out with three source books using OGL Fantasy and Modern theme. I paid someone who knew the rules much better than me to do the conversions. It is not that I hate d20, more like I know my limitations.

That said, I am much like you Phil. Few system rouse hate in me. I like Palladium so how twisted am I. I ran old WW six days a week for almost a year while I owned our stores. That puts you in a dark and strange place. Do I run any of these systems (heck, even my own) the way they were written? Hell, no. I really enjoy tweeking systems to make them do what they were designed to do to the extreme. D20 and DND are the same kind of thing, very fun to modify.

Bill

 

[Xombie Master]

On the topic of Publishers and D20:
D20 sells, many small companies can make a few good supplements to help fund their own games. They may not like it but money is needed to fund other ventures.

On the topic of groups and new game systems:
I find that players who are reluctant to learn a new game are easily swayed by scheduling a side game one shot. On a day that doesn't interfere with regular gaming. Make sure you are intimately familiar with the system. Ensure them that they will not need to worry about rules, just have fun. Do well and they will slowly come around to the idea of a new game. I ran Call of Cthulhu once for my roomate, and a couple friends. After they got done raving about it, I could then count on my group getting into it if I choose to run it.

 

[mythusmage]

I know that I've never really liked d20. I think it was designed by a bunch of hacks.

I do know that one of the original designers was a former insurance adjuster who is famed far and wide these days for his typoes.

 

[Sledge]

I know that I've never really liked d20. I think it was designed by a bunch of hacks.

yoink!

 

[pogre]

There just is not enough money in gaming to write/publish game stuff you do not like. If you're trying to make a buck there are a lot easier ways.

 

[EditorBFG]

I emailed Chaosium once, just as a concerned customer, and said, "Where's more dual-stat?" and Dustin e-mailed back and said it just didn't sell. So I guess Pulp Cthulhu is never coming out-- which sucks because great names were attached to it.

Isn't d20 publisher Louis Porter, Jr. on record saying he doesn't like d20? Does he post on these boards?

I don't recall John Wick saying he hated d20, he just said it was nothing more and nothing less than another task resolution mechanic. Which, of course, is true of just about everything.

A lot of guys seem to come out against d20 and almost just seem to be railing against "the Man," because of WotC's size. Like, "I'll never sell out and play D&D, those guys screwed Gygax." It seems silly to me. I know people who won't see movies with certain actors because they don't like their politics, and I've always been mystified by the inability to separate the art from the artists.

I love d20, it's modular and it works, but I'll admit that when I recently heard some punk kid lament that "the new Warhammer FRP should have been d20," I wanted to kneecap him. On the other hand, those I game/write with and I are so consumed with the d20 thing we haven't even tried playing the new Warhammer yet, even though we loved Warhammer FRP so much the first time and were excited about the new one-- so, maybe people like me are why some people hate d20.