D&D 5E Purple Dragon Knight = Warlord?

[Remathilis]

Not literally impossible of course, but, as you laid out, above, not something the game was trying to do, nor ever did at all well, with extensive house-ruling required to even take a shot at it. Until 4e introduced the Warlord in the PH1 and you could suddenly have a practical all-martial party, followed by inherent bonuses in DMG2, and low-/no-item became practical.

5e's doing it in the opposite order, Bounded Accuracy makes no-item campaigns practical enough, we just need the Warlord, and, really, some more martial options...

...and it would sure be nice to go further with all-martial campaigns than 4e did.

Tangent: I really question how many people are playing no-magic or no-caster D&D; it seems there are so many better suited systems for that, The One Ring being key among them. Seems like all-martial is a small sub-niche, probably right on par with fully-developed Modern rules, but I digress.

That stated, I still think an all-martial campaign could be done using just a few houserules. Were it me, I'd do Fighter (Champion, Battlemaster, Banneret), Rogue (Thief, Assassin, Mastermind, Swashbuckler), Monk (Open Hand), and Barbarian (Berserker or Totem) and then use the nonmagical Ranger (Hunter or Beastmaster). I'd then use the Healing Surge variant (burn HD in combat) to fix the healing problem and only allow ritual casting via feat. (Banning Magic Adept and other Caster feats as well). Lastly, I'd make sure monsters don't have immunity to magic weapons (resistance is fine ocasionally, but I might allow unique bypasses like stakes for vampires) and go with that. (I might do a few more minor edits, like to what races are allowed, but that's flavor). All I really did was add Healing Surges and the Variant Ranger, the rest is all limits. I'm sure between Surges, the Healer feat, and a slight tweak on potions of healing (being nonmagical herbal tonics) I could run nonmagical just with the PHB+SCAG. I wouldn't be running Princes of the Apocalypse like this, but its doable without additional classes. (Though I won't say an additional class wouldn't be useful or wanted, just not needed). Its certainly on par with the amount of changes needed to make 4e itemless...

 

[Imaro]

I've noticed the variant healing surge rules have been brought up by me as well as other posters on more than one occasion... yet I haven't seen [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] ... [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] or anyone else claiming 5e can't do a low-magic/no magic game address why this (along with the other sources of healing such as Rally, Second Wind, potions of healing, Inspiring Leader, Healer feat, etc.) isn't enough for a more than "functional" game...

 

[El Mahdi]

It's a normal piece of equipment, on the PHB equipment list, with a purchase price, that is presumably available in most places, and even creatable by PC's. It's not even necessarily "magical" (they're created by herbalism kits, which anyone can have proficiency in). It's a presumed part of what any 5e character can do. It doesn't need to be a class feature for it to be available to people of that class.

Okay, I'm significantly confused by this.

Healing Potions can be considered "mundane" HP recovery, based on herbalism, but inspirational HP recovery breaks the bounds of reason?

In other words - using the same parlance that's been previously employed - "shouting wounds closed" is unacceptable, but closing wounds by drinking some herbal tea is okay...?


Yeah... No double standard there at all...

 

[Tony Vargas]

Tangent: I really question how many people are playing no-magic or no-caster D&D

Very few, I'd expect, since D&D hasn't been very good at it prior to 4e, and is yet to reach the same level of support for the playstyle in 5e. Rather like high-level, play, really. It's not well-supported because people didn't usually play at high level because it wasn't well-supported. :shrug:

But, briefly, you could play all-martial parties and low-/no-magic campaigns seamlessly. So the playstyle has been supported by a past edition, and it's within 5e's purview to support it, again.

That stated, I still think an all-martial campaign could be done using just a few houserules. Were it me, I'd do Fighter (Champion, Battlemaster, Banneret), Rogue (Thief, Assassin, Mastermind, Swashbuckler), Monk (Open Hand), and Barbarian (Berserker or Totem) and then use the nonmagical Ranger (Hunter or Beastmaster).

Monk & Totem berserker would be pushing it, but sure... you'd have a party with some good skills, and lots of DPR...

I'd then use the Healing Surge variant (burn HD in combat) to fix the healing problem and only allow ritual casting via feat. (Banning Magic Adept and other Caster feats as well). Lastly, I'd make sure monsters don't have immunity to magic weapons (resistance is fine ocasionally, but I might allow unique bypasses like stakes for vampires) and go with that. Its certainly on par with the amount of changes needed to make 4e itemless...

I could argue the details of the above, but whatever.
The changes needed to run an all-martial party in 4e were: none.
The changes to make it 'itemless' were: use inherent bonuses.
So, no, not on par.

(Though I won't say an additional class wouldn't be useful or wanted, just not needed).

Either way, useful/wanted or needed, it'd be a good thing.

No 5e game I've played has this problem.

In one of 'em, we've got a fighter and a swashbuckler.

In another, we've got a fighter and a monk (that counts for you as non-caster, right?) and we've had a rogue/fighter before.

In a third, we've got an assassin rogue.

Casters are common in 5e, but clearly not everyone is a caster.

In genre, casters are a minority not just among the theoretical backdrop of the setting, but among the heroes, themselves. The Fellowship had one caster, for instance. Yet 5e provides many more caster options than non-caster, let alone non-supernatural.

 

[I'm A Banana]

They're not nearly enough to do the job.

Sure they are. Advantage on attack rolls and disadvantage on enemy's attack rolls is pretty much the job that buffers and debuffers would have to do, and those actions do it.

Again, I think we're just using 'functional' differently.

SCAG does add a precious 3 new non-magical archetypes, which is both encouraging and depressing in a way, since that represents a significant expansion in options but only illustrates how limited those options were (and remain).

I'm certainly not saying the options aren't limited.

I'm just saying they're sufficient. That's a different standard.

Haven't run Lost Mine, but HotDQ would absolutely TPK a party of 1st level Champions, just in Seek the Keep - it'll TPK a lot of parties, because it was designed without all the guidelines available, but that does happen to make it a good instance of 'things going wrong.'

They'd be as fine as any other party. AC 16 or 18 vs. +4 attack bonus keeps most of the attacks missing (more, if one or two of 'em are Protection-style or Defense-style, or if anyone decides not to attack and instead takes the Dodge action), they'll take ~3 hits to down each (depending on CON), so, like, if 4 kobolds go in a row and before all the PC's and concentrate all their firepower, they might make one unconscious in that fight. But the battle is won handily once the first kobold or two drops, which typically happens as soon as any PC gets a turn. It's a very challenging first combat, but it's not a TPK for a Champion party any more than it is for any other party (heck, a party with more spellcasters would go down faster thanks to lower HP and AC).

I've got HotDQ and a desire to run this now.

 

[mellored]

Healing Potions can be considered "mundane" HP recovery, based on herbalism, but inspirational HP recovery breaks the bounds of reason?

I always found healing potions odd. Drink and instantly cure a cut on your leg?

IMO: They should be more like a regeneration effect.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Okay, I'm significantly confused by this.

Healing Potions can be considered "mundane" HP recovery, based on herbalism, but inspirational HP recovery breaks the bounds of reason?

In other words - using the same parlance that's been previously employed - "shouting wounds closed" is unacceptable, but closing wounds by drinking some herbal tea is okay...?

Absolutely.

When hp loss represents wounds in the narrative, healing herbs can heal wounds. Especially because herbs can be in that "supernatural" space quite comfortably (you don't need to be a spellcaster to use one, but they might have some magical properties of their own). But "strictly Charles Atlas-style inspiration" can't heal wounds, and I don't think it's claimed that it can. So it's not compatible with hp loss representing wounds. Contrast, say, bardic healing, which can fit a sort of "magically inspiring" narrative - that can heal wounds just fine.

Inspirational healing works fine if you let it be supernatural, OR if you make HP not about wounds.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Healing Potions can be considered "mundane" HP recovery, based on herbalism, but inspirational HP recovery breaks the bounds of reason?

Absolutely.

When hp loss represents wounds in the narrative, healing herbs can heal wounds. Especially because herbs can be in that "supernatural" space quite comfortably.

Supernatural is decidedly not mundane, so I assume you meant 'absolutely' not.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Supernatural is decidedly not mundane, so I assume you meant 'absolutely' not.

Anyone with the training (herbalism kit proficiency) can walk into the woods and pick the right herbs and ground them up and make people drink them and that'll heal their wounds nearly instantly.

That meets certain definitions of "mundane." It's as mundane as dragon-flight or mermaids or basilisks, anyway.

Perhaps more relevantly, it's something that any character can do, regardless of your ability to cast spells or not, so it is well within the realm of any fully-mundane D&D fighter to do out of the box.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Anyone with the training (herbalism kit proficiency) can walk into the woods and pick the right herbs and ground them up and make people drink them and that'll heal their wounds nearly instantly.

That meets certain definitions of "mundane."

Clearly not the definition of 'mundane' Al Mahdi was using, though:

Okay, I'm significantly confused by this.

Healing Potions can be considered "mundane" HP recovery, based on herbalism, but inspirational HP recovery breaks the bounds of reason?

In other words - using the same parlance that's been previously employed - "shouting wounds closed" is unacceptable, but closing wounds by drinking some herbal tea is okay...?

Yeah... No double standard there at all...

I always found healing potions odd. Drink and instantly cure a cut on your leg?

IMO: They should be more like a regeneration effect.

Not a strange thing - either instant-healing or regeneration - for a 'magic potion' to do. It's maaaagic, afterall.

Also OK for the herbal equivalent of an energy drink to 'just' restore hps rather than narratively close wounds in a game that already has HD, death saves, Second Wind (and, now, the ally-affecting PDK version of it), and overnight healing. Even though that's not how they're presented, per se.

Either way, I wouldn't expect 'em to become the WoCLW (or Lesser Vigor, for the hypothetical regeneration verison) of 5e - not unless the DM wants that sort of thing for his campaign.