D&D 5E (2014) Purple Dragon Knight = Warlord?

Not in the Tabletop RPG, supposedly -- the 3.5E-era Marshall was a feature of the minis-based "Skirmish Game," not of the RPG itself, and it never got into the SRD as far as I know. (I just searched the "Hypertext SRD" and didn't find it.)

No, it was a regular D&D class, alongside the Healer, Favored Soul, and Warmage. (All first printed in the Miniature's Handbook, half of which was for the regular game, half for the skirmish game.)

Check it out yourself.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b

It was also referenced in 3.5's Player's Handbook II.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Probably not. That's 3/4 characters whose special abilities aren't Charles Atlas Superpowers, so we're well into the realm of supernatural explanations for their abilities. They're MADE of magic!

Methinks we're having a problem of "low magic" not being clearly defined.



No 5e game I've played has this problem.

In one of 'em, we've got a fighter and a swashbuckler.

In another, we've got a fighter and a monk (that counts for you as non-caster, right?) and we've had a rogue/fighter before.

In a third, we've got an assassin rogue.

Casters are common in 5e, but clearly not everyone is a caster.

I think you just proved my point.

Three campaigns and at most two characters aren't casters.

Every round of every encounter you have at least one character casting spells. Probably two or more. How is that not high magic? How is that not Potterverse?

------

Frankly I'm baffled that this is even remotely contentious. In 1e, even with a couple of casters in the group, you could easily go entire encounters without a single spell being cast. Considering just how few spells you actually got, that wasn't exactly unreasonable. Compare to 5e where, not only do you get spells cast every single encounter, you likely get spells cast every single round of every single encounter and frequently multiple spells per round. Add to that the fact that casters can drop rituals now and not have to actually burn slots to cast.

My druid can cast Speak with Animals all day long and not use a single resource. In 1e, that same character might be able to do that once or twice per day, for a couple of minutes and it would cost him a significant portion of his daily spells.

In what way is AD&D remotely as magic heavy as 5e? In 5e, a character is notable for NOT having any spells. In AD&D, a character was notable FOR having spells. For a large chunk of play, no one outside of the casters had any spells at all. A 7th level AD&D monk wasn't particularly magical. IIRC, he could heal 1/day and that was about it. The paladin could heal 1/day - the most magic he'd have is 1/week remove disease and Protection from Evil. Compare to a 5e 7th level paladin which, in addition to having everything a 1e paladin had, also has about 10 spells per day. And a paladin is hardly on the high end of the magic scale.

The first three levels in 5e are meant to last what, 3 sessions? Maybe 4? By the fourth session in a 5e game, it's entirely plausible that every single character in a group could be casting spells. How many sessions in would you be to have an 8th level ranger or a 9th level paladin? I'm not sure, but, I'm pretty confident it's more than 4 and a lot closer to 30 or 40. You could play for a year and the only casters in the group would be the cleric and the wizard. And even then, you're not seeing magic every single encounter, and the vast majority of the effects that the cleric is doing is restorative.
 
Last edited:

I think you just proved my point.

Three campaigns and at most two characters aren't casters.

I dunno what newfangled math you're on about, but I count
  • Assassin rogue
  • Homebrew knight fighter
  • Swashbuckler (was: fighter/rogue)
  • human fighter
  • monk?

And that's just currently-played characters across 3 campaigns.

That's more than two.

Every round of every encounter you have at least one character casting spells. Probably two or more. How is that not high magic? How is that not Potterverse?

Because not everyone is a spellcaster. That's the point I'm making. There has been no D&D 5e campaign I've had where every character has been a caster. There's ALWAYS been non-casters.

Your definition of what is high magic and what is low magic seems a bit slippery, so I don't know that "every round, at least one character is casting spells" is a great way to judge what is high and what is low. Certainly a 1e party with two fighters, a paladin, a monk, and a cleric could have at least one character casting spells every round, and three doing something weird and supernatural, but you'd consider that "low magic," so...it's not clear to me where your lines are.
 
Last edited:

I dunno what newfangled math you're on about, but I count
  • Assassin rogue
  • Homebrew knight fighter
  • Swashbuckler (was: fighter/rogue)
  • human fighter
  • monk?

And that's just currently-played characters across 3 campaigns.

That's more than two.

Two PER campaign. How many casters in each campaign?


Because not everyone is a spellcaster. That's the point I'm making. There has been no D&D 5e campaign I've had where every character has been a caster. There's ALWAYS been non-casters.

Your definition of what is high magic and what is low magic seems a bit slippery, so I don't know that "every round, at least one character is casting spells" is a great way to judge what is high and what is low. Certainly a 1e party with two fighters, a paladin, a monk, and a cleric could have at least one character casting spells every round, and three doing something weird and supernatural, but you'd consider that "low magic," so...it's not clear to me where your lines are.

Are you serious? What level would an AD&D cleric have to be to be able to cast a spell every single round? Tenth? Fifteenth? What "weird and supernatural" thing is an AD&D monk doing? The only magic the paladin is doing before 8th level is 1/day healing. That's it. That's the only thing he can actively do. Oh, right, I forgot, detect evil. That's fair enough I suppose. Protection from Evil only kicks in on some opponents, so, it's not like it's an all the time thing and it's invisible.

My line is this: In every round of every encounter is at least one character casting a spell? If that's true, then it is most certainly not a low magic campaign.
 

Two PER campaign. How many casters in each campaign?

More. The point was only that not everyone is a caster in any of my D&D campaigns. If you agree that not everyone is caster in 5e, then we can move on.

Are you serious? What level would an AD&D cleric have to be to be able to cast a spell every single round? Tenth? Fifteenth? What "weird and supernatural" thing is an AD&D monk doing? The only magic the paladin is doing before 8th level is 1/day healing. That's it. That's the only thing he can actively do. Oh, right, I forgot, detect evil. That's fair enough I suppose. Protection from Evil only kicks in on some opponents, so, it's not like it's an all the time thing and it's invisible.

Keep in mind this is 1e, so we might be seeing one encounter per day, and an encounter could be over with very quickly. It's not like it needs to go for 30 rounds a day, it can cast a spell in every round of every encounter and only cast 2 spells/day (ESPECIALLY the cleric, since restoring cleric heals is the main reason to rest in 1e, meaning that when you CAN'T be a heal-bot each round, it's time to get those spells back).

AD&D monks chatter with chipmunks at level 4 (IIRC), the same thing you decided ruled out your druid, and that's only if you want to imagine that their inherent combat abilities, speed, slow fall, etc. aren't magical.

My point here is just that your definition of "low magic" seems squishy, if you can talk with chipmunks and pinpoint evil at will and still be "low magic."

My line is this: In every round of every encounter is at least one character casting a spell? If that's true, then it is most certainly not a low magic campaign.

By that definition, D&D's never really been great at supporting low-magic campaigns out of the box, even with warlords in 4e (you still needed a controller, and guess what that was doing at-will, every round?). 5e does it at least as adequately as any other edition. That doesn't mean there's not room to offer it more support, but it does mean that you don't require a "cleric replacement" (warlord or otherwise) to make this work. Not having a Charles Atlas class that can heal as well as the cleric doesn't invalidate the approach. It's also apparently true that having a Charles Atlas class that can heal as well as the cleric in 4e was unnecessary, since you could do it in 1e with a cleric. So the warlord isn't the make-or-break thing here.
 

Yup, I'd buy that [MENTION=6788732]cbwjm[/MENTION]. That's largely what classes are available in my Thule game.

Btw, I did forget that 1e monks speak with animals at 3rd. But that's the only supernatural ability they get until 7th with minor healing. Take away speak with animals and monks in 1e were largely mundane until very high level with quivering palm. I'm frankly very surprised that anyone would think our example group isn't pretty low magic. An 8th level cleric only has about fifteen spells per day, the majority of which in play would be healing or restorative. The idea that the cleric would have enough spells to blast away every single round really doesn't fit with my experience.

And cbwjm, I think your group would fit nicely with what I want. Most spells would likely be healing anyway. I can live with that.

But, I'd also say that your group is something of an outlier too. Not a single full caster? Nice.
 

Yeah, our Dragonlance campaign has no actual healer. We've got a paladin, but, outside of a couple of ranger heals, that's about it.

What I've found that means is that our adventuring days tend to be very short. The group lacks the depth of resources to go 6 or 8 encounters in a day. Or, if we did one day, we'd certainly not be able to do it the day after. So, the campaign has focused on shorter scenarios - single rest adventuring days, by and large. I think that's a trend that will continue. It will be interesting to see what happens at higher levels. The lack of resources, I think, is eventually going to bite us in the petoot.
 

D&D has never done low-no magic well. AD&D is lower than 3e on in terms of magical saturation, but its never did either well without extensive houseruling. ... No magic is practically impossible without severe modifications to the ruleset and huge changes to source material (everything from monsters to math)... Which brings us back around to the thrust of this tangent; is a warlord needed to do nonmagical? If you say "yes", then you agree nonmagical play was impossible before 4e.
Not literally impossible of course, but, as you laid out, above, not something the game was trying to do, nor ever did at all well, with extensive house-ruling required to even take a shot at it. Until 4e introduced the Warlord in the PH1 and you could suddenly have a practical all-martial party, followed by inherent bonuses in DMG2, and low-/no-item became practical.

5e's doing it in the opposite order, Bounded Accuracy makes no-item campaigns practical enough, we just need the Warlord, and, really, some more martial options...

...and it would sure be nice to go further with all-martial campaigns than 4e did.

I hear you, but -
Tiefling and Dragonborn included. Second Wind included. Action Surge included. Saving Throws per Round included. some 4e Fighter and 4e Warlord type powers included as Manuevers. Hit Dice Mechanic is a variant on the 4e Surge Mechanic. I could go on.
There's lots of little mechanical bits that harken to 4e, usually with the serial numbers filed off, or also harkening to 3.x - Saving Throws per round, for instance, are not 4e-style saving throws, so the corellation is poor, they're just like the saving-throw-per-round 3.5 used for Hold spells, though. Second Wind & Action Points were very different both in impact and in availability as well as in being universal. Tieflings were introduced in 3e. Maneuvers owe at least as much to Bo9S as 4e. And we could go on, but they're nothing comparable to including a class original to the edition that was in it's PH1.
What I'm saying is, if it weren't the Warlord, it would be something else.
The Warlord stands fairly unique as 4e poster-child. It was the only new class introduced by 4e that appeared in the PH1. It was a martial class balanced with casters filling a formal role inspired by the de-facto 'healer'/buffer roles that had formerly been strictly caster-only,. There's no 'something else' that significant.

Just teasing this out as factually incorrect in one major respect: every character is capable of in-combat HP restoration and damage mitigation. Potions of Healing do the former
That's not a character capability, that's a magic item, that might be far less common in a low-magic game or non-existent in a no-magic game.
, and there are various methods for the latter (the dodge action being probably the most prominent).
Damage mitigation could even be stretched to killing the enemy faster, which martial-classes' DPR does do. It's just can't be enough to make up for lack of a support character - if challenges are tuned for that, they're not really challenges anymore. Support contributions let the party come back from a run of bad luck or the opening salvo of a deadly challenge, it's part of the dynamic D&D assumes and requires to be fully functional, and it's currently only adequately provided by full-caster classes.
The "focus" of a class in 5e doesn't limit its actions to one particular activity on every turn.
It does limit the available resources to perform those actions and their effectiveness, however.
And to be clear, the claim I'm making is this: if you have a party entirely made up of Champion Fighters in 5e, you'd still be within the expected power/healing/damage curve of the game.
You'd be way off on the tail of expected DPR, and blow through a lot of combats, mitigating the need for between-combat healing. It'd be like an all-striker 4e party. Good on paper, able to roll over combats that should have been challenging, but likely to TPK when things tilt against them, whether from the DM trying to create even a feel that a combat is challenging, or from a run of dice luck.
That doesn't say much about what someone might WANT out of a warlord, or how much one might want to shore that aspect of the game up (more variety is nice!), but it does mean you might want to reconsider the mantra of "an all-martial party is inadequate." It's adequate. Adequate might not be enough, but wanting more is a different desire than wanting basic functionality.
'Not enough,' is not 'adequate.' By /basic/ functionality, you could mean just that the game can be played through, no matter how bad the results, and, sure, d20's don't stop working for want of a caster, but that basic functionality doesn't make the game entirely playable or functional, it just means that you can go through the motions as it fails, rather than come up against a hard stop the moment you try. Similarly, you could dial down and remove challenges and have healing potions littering every dungeon and the like, that wouldn't be the game working, that'd be you kludging it to keep it running.
 
Last edited:

That's not a character capability, that's a magic item, that might be far less common in a low-magic game or non-existent in a low-magic game.

It's a normal piece of equipment, on the PHB equipment list, with a purchase price, that is presumably available in most places, and even creatable by PC's. It's not even necessarily "magical" (they're created by herbalism kits, which anyone can have proficiency in). It's a presumed part of what any 5e character can do. It doesn't need to be a class feature for it to be available to people of that class.

By narrowing your scope to class features, you're going to get a much more narrow view of what a character in 5e is capable of than what they are actually capable of in practice. Class features are not the only relevant metric by which to measure the possibility of a "low magic party."

Damage mitigation could even be stretched to killing the enemy faster, which martial-classes' DPR does do. It's just can't be enough to make up for lack of a support character - if challenges are tuned for that, they're not really challenges anymore. Support contributions let the party come back from a run of bad luck or the opening salvo of a deadly challenge, it's part of the dynamic D&D assumes and requires to be fully functional, and it's currently only adequately provided by full-caster classes.

Class features that explicitly provide for support like that are no more necessary as a party role with class feature in 5e than healing is. Desirable? Sure. Necessary for the party to function at the expected level? Nope.

It does limit the available resources to perform those actions and their effectiveness, however.

You only need to be so effective. Healing during combat, for instance, is mostly in function about the action economy - give somebody a single hit point, and they'll be just as effective as if you gave them 10 or 20 when the monsters are doing 25 points of damage. The extra hp's there don't contribute to combat effectiveness (they just perhaps make the psychology a little gentler).

You'd be way off on the tail of expected DPR, and blow through a lot of combats, mitigating the need for between-combat healing. It'd be like an all-striker 4e party. Good on paper, able to roll over combats that should have been challenging, but likely to TPK when things tilt against them, whether from the DM trying to create even a feel that a combat is challenging, or from a run of dice luck.

That's what healing potions, the Dodge action, the Help action, and similar mechanics are for - to mitigate those runs of bad luck. Fighters especially are insanely flexible in this regard, and because a party of Champions is already dealing healthy DPR, there's no real loss in party effectiveness if, say, your heavily armored tank goes up to the enemies and dances around using the Dodge action in melee while everyone else spams bow attacks or burns healing potions when the tank gets low - the DPR you're dealing as a party is already more than you need to get the job done.

Again, you can't just narrow your gaze to class features and imagine that's an accurate picture. That doesn't fairly represent the play experience, because characters have more possible solutions and resources than those embodied in their class features.

'Not enough,' is not 'adequate.' By /basic/ functionality, you could mean just that the game can be played through, no matter how bad the results, and, sure, d20's don't stop working for want of a caster, but that basic functionality doesn't make the game entirely playable or functional, it just means that you can go through the motions as it fails, rather than come up against a hard stop the moment you try. Similarly, you could dial down and remove challenges and have healing potions littering every dungeon and the like, that wouldn't be the game working, that'd be you kludging it to keep it running.

Healing potions can be bought. They're standard equipment, as available as ropes and bows and chain mail. That means that no party is healer-dependent in 5e: anyone can spend an action to give a KO'd character their actions back. You don't need class features to replicate a cleric.

This is entirely playable, entirely functional. It could use some more diversity (SCAG adds quite a bit here!), but you could run through Lost Mine of Phandelver or Hoard of the Dragon Queen with a party of Champions, and be entirely up to the challenges it gives you, because 5e gives every character the ability to fill any necessary role for at least a round or two (and most combats only last 3).
 
Last edited:

That's what the Dodge action, the Help action, and similar mechanics are for - to mitigate those runs of bad luck.
They're not nearly enough to do the job.

This is entirely playable, entirely functional. It could use some more diversity (SCAG adds quite a bit here!),
Again, I think we're just using 'functional' differently.

SCAG does add a precious 3 new non-magical archetypes, which is both encouraging and depressing in a way, since that represents a significant expansion in options but only illustrates how limited those options were (and remain).

but you could run through Lost Mine of Phandelver or Hoard of the Dragon Queen with a party of Champions, and be entirely up to the challenges it gives you, because 5e gives every character the ability to fill any necessary role for at least a round or two (and most combats only last 3).
Haven't run Lost Mine, but HotDQ would absolutely TPK a party of 1st level Champions, just in Seek the Keep - it'll TPK a lot of parties, because it was designed without all the guidelines available, but that does happen to make it a good instance of 'things going wrong.'
 

Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top