Push+Wall=save

[Skyscraper]

In 25 years of playing, i think i've never been in a situation where my PCs or myself as a player were next to lava. I'm looking forward to it though, because i've read so many threads on the topic that i can't wait for all those rules-discussions to finally bloom into something useful

This being said, i'd like to know how deep the pit is for that PC to be able to cast a teleportation spell while falling. Plus, normally, someone who's pushed into a pit falls and hits the ground during the pusher's turn. So the teleportation which occurs on the fallen PC's turn essentially places the ally at the bottom of the pit IMO. Unless of course the teleportation power is an immediate reaction, but i doubt that's the case.

The question on the power that places an opponent over the pit appears relevant. I believe the creature would be allowed a save as per RAW since teleporting someone into hindering terrain is moving him into hindering terrain. If we rule it that way, it would mean that the target of the power falls prone on the square where it stood before being teleported if it makes its save and the teleportation fails. It's harder to make sense out of this in game-terms. However, still in game-terms, why is someone being forcefully moved allowed a save to fall prone only if he is moved into hindering terrain? Why not have that option all the time? (Say: if the target is being moved in-between four sneak-attacking rogues, wouldn't it want to fall prone outside of that select circle?) So really, the falling prone rule is really a game-balance rule, and it's up to the DM and players to make sense out of it in-game IMO, including for teleportation.

Sky

 

[Khime]

So the higher level you get, the more damage lava deals?

Only in the sense that lava damage scales with player damage, so a level 30 is just a likely to die from diving head-first into lava as a level 1. If you'll burn your arm off at level 1, that same arm'll still get burned off later, too, unless you're specifically armoring/fireproofing yourself.

 

[Caliban]

I send this question off to customer service (mainly because I was annoyed that if you DO get a save to avoid entering damaging spell effects, it wasn't included in the forced movement rules in the PHB):

Damaging spell effects do not count as hindering terrain, and so monsters do not get a saving throw to avoid forced movement into them. It makes no difference if it's a cloud of daggers or a wall of fire.


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Customer (Caliban)09/18/2008 09:30 PMPage 44 of the DMG states that targets get a save to avoid being forced into Hindering Terrain (which is on page 61). Do spell effects such as Cloud of Daggers or the various Wall spells count as Hindering Terrain? Does a target get a save to avoid being pushed, pulled, or slid into a damaging spell effect? What about one that blocks line of sight, such as Wall of Fire?

Thank you.

********************
Page Number: Page 44 and 61
Book Name: Dungeon Master's Guide (4e)

 

[James McMurray]

Many teleportation powers say you can't teleport someone vertically, but others do not. Technically the ones that don't say anything can put the enemy anywhere. However, the rules in the PHB seem to be based almost entirely on two-dimensional battles, and some things (like Maelstrom of Chaos) can get quite crazy if you add in the third dimension.

I'd think very hard before allowing it, as it can get pretty ugly. You may soon find yourself wanting to have every fight on a flat open plain so the party can only do a few d10s of falling damage by teleporting their foes. If you do let it happen, make sure the monsters do it too sometimes. I suggest Githzerai Zerths, or for higher level games, lots and lots of Green Slaads.

 

[Goumindong]

I send this question off to customer service (mainly because I was annoyed that if you DO get a save to avoid entering damaging spell effects, it wasn't included in the forced movement rules in the PHB):

The short answer is that CS is as wrong as wrong can be. They also have stated that you take damage for every square you move in a damaging effect that lists "damage on entering"

The long and short of it is this.

There are no restrictions that hindering terrain be there before the battle.
There are no restrictions that hindering terrain not be power created
There are no difference between normal actions and powers anyway so it wouldn't matter if there was
There are no reasons that any effect that meets the requirements of hindering terrain not be counted as hindering terrain.

Its hindering terrain, they get a save, it will keep your other players from complaining that wizards are overpowered. Don't worry, these powers are still ridiculously strong

 

[Caliban]

The short answer is that CS is as wrong as wrong can be. They also have stated that you take damage for every square you move in a damaging effect that lists "damage on entering"

The long and short of it is this.

There are no restrictions that hindering terrain be there before the battle.
There are no restrictions that hindering terrain not be power created
There are no difference between normal actions and powers anyway so it wouldn't matter if there was
There are no reasons that any effect that meets the requirements of hindering terrain not be counted as hindering terrain.

Its hindering terrain, they get a save, it will keep your other players from complaining that wizards are overpowered. Don't worry, these powers are still ridiculously strong

*shrug* Since the rules for forced movement in the PHB say nothing about getting a save for entering a damaging spell effect, I'm going to assume that that CS is correct on this one. I play (and run) in the RPGA and we have to stick to official rulings as much as possible.

Besides, I have yet to see anyone complain that wizards are "overpowered". Out of a few dozen people I've seen play modules here, only two people play wizards. Only one of them uses "push" effects to any extent at all. And that is my wizard.

 

[useridunavailable]

If you want to do a whole heckuva lot of damage with a Wizard, make a Blood Mage, pack Thunderwave with a high Wis, and get the rest of your party to take forced movement powers. Blood Pulse + Bolstering Blood + Forced Movement = fast and bloody death to just about anything. Orb of Inevitable Continuance is also a nice addition, as is a Paladin with Wrath of the Gods. No save (it doesn't fit the definition of hindering terrain), no extra squares per square moved... if you roll high on your 2d10, you will routinely deal a ridiculous amount of damage, often to multiple creatures at once. If you don't roll high, use Soul Burn and try again.

As for damaging area effects, yes, they do fit the definition of hindering terrain. If you're talking about Wall of Fire, it also costs 4 total squares of movement to enter any square containing the wall (which doesn't exclude forced movement by any rule I've read). Otherwise, Wall of Fire + Thunderwave would just get stupid, especially considering that Wall of Fire specifically states that each square entered deals 3d6 + int.

Although Wall of Fire is still pretty decent (I like to use Shadowfell Gloves and Bolstering Blood on it and use it to cut off the artillery and stragglers from the front ranks), I really like Stinking Cloud as a nice sustained damage source. You can move it around (6 as a move action), so there's usually no need to push anything into it and allow a save. Just move it right on top of as many as you can hit.

 

[Goumindong]

*shrug* Since the rules for forced movement in the PHB say nothing about getting a save for entering a damaging spell effect, I'm going to assume that that CS is correct on this one. I play (and run) in the RPGA and we have to stick to official rulings as much as possible.

Besides, I have yet to see anyone complain that wizards are "overpowered". Out of a few dozen people I've seen play modules here, only two people play wizards. Only one of them uses "push" effects to any extent at all. And that is my wizard.

Damaging spell effects are hindering terrain. The forced movement rules say you get a save for entering hindering terrain.

You explicitly get a save for being pushed into fire[by RAI its one of the examples]. Wall of fire is a wall of fire. You get a save for being pushed into it. There is no text anywhere that differentiates a natural wall of fire that has the same effects as a wall of fire than a player created wall of fire that has the same effects as a wall of fire. All powers are are effects and the actions required to do so. All natural effects are effects and the actions required to make them happen are different.

Its all hindering terrain. Breaking this rule makes all sorts of ridiculous crazy possible. Breaking this rule makes wizards ridiculously overpowered.

CS is wrong.

 

[Henry]

So the higher level you get, the more damage lava deals?

*quacks like a duck*


Oh, it WAS in the 4e PHB Lite. Page 32,


I knew I wasn't crazy - just not official.

That comes from a joke that was popular on the ENWorld and WotC forums in 2007-early 2008:

Fire and Brimstone! Lava Rules For Your Game

Some ENWorlders from Gencon 2007 put together a joke supplement, and it was big hit at the WotC offices, so one of the designers (can't remember who) said, "YOu should know that in 4e, Lava kills you with no saving throw." Someone took it as the truth, so it made it into the fan phb lite.

 

[Caliban]

Damaging spell effects are hindering terrain. The forced movement rules say you get a save for entering hindering terrain.

The forced movement rules in the PHB say nothing of the sort. They say you get a save for being pushed over a edge/pit, that's it. Hindering terrain isn't mentioned in the PHB at all. Which could be seen as an indication that players can't create hindering terrain, or as an indication that the hindering terrain rules weren't codified until after the PHB was finished, whichever you prefer.

And repeating your entire arguement almost verbatim every time you post doesn't make it any more or less true. Really, add something new, don't just repeat yourself. And simply adding hyberbole like "ridiculously overpowered" doesn't count as "something new"