Push+Wall=save

[SadisticFishing]

Does moving into the area right beside a wizard deal damage upon entering the square?

What does that have to do with anything? I have never seen that definition referenced before.

 

[eamon]

The saving throw is a mechanic.

If the creature is being pushed into Hindering Terrain, it can attempt to drop prone. It may succeed, it may fail, based on the roll of the die.

If the creature only thinks it is being pushed into Hindering Terrain, it can attempt to drop prone... but it will fail. Just as it would if it rolled a 7.

As far as the creature is concerned, there's no difference between failing a save to fall prone when being pushed into actual spikes, and not getting a save to fall prone when being pushed into illusory spikes. In both cases, it tried to fall prone, but didn't make it in time before it got shoved.

-Hyp.

This results in the disingenious situation where a creature will never succeed in dropping prone for no observable reason. In two identical situations, a creature may or may not be able to fall prone based on something that hasn't yet occured - namely that it is pushed into a spiked pit or pushed into an perceptually perfect image of a spiked pit. It's a very odd effect which would allow a simple, non-magical spiked pit to affect a creature at a distance by any means other than perception.

Consider the converse, then - would a creature get a save if it's pushed into a spiked pit that looks like normal ground? If it's the spiked pit's existence that determines the saving throw, then the creature should get a saving throw - but how can the creature drop prone before it perceives the pit in the first place?

The rules concerning this aren't consistent. For kicks, how would you rule a creature being pushed into a (still hidden) pit trap? The pit trap makes a reflex attack - if that hits, it's clear the creature drops. If it misses, however, the creature succeeds in evading the trap and immediate returns to the previous square and its move action ends. Of course, it wasn't performing a move action, and it's rather odd that the push would become less effective because a trap has happened to open. The DM can sanely rule that the creature will need to save and will drop prone if he's pushed into the trap but the trap misses - but the rules are silent on the matter.

Similarly, the rules don't really specify what would happen if you teleport onto a pit trap - they say you return the the square you previously occupied, which doesn't make any sense at all, of course.

Basically, the rules only cover certain narrow cases. You may certainly drop prone to avoid being pushed if you're being pushed into a pit or into hindering terrain, but they don't mention other cases. This doesn't mean it's wise to forbid such an action, in the same way it's probably not wise to read the rules for being pushed onto a pit trap or teleporting onto a pit trap literally.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This results in the disingenious situation where a creature will never succeed in dropping prone for no observable reason. In two identical situations, a creature may or may not be able to fall prone based on something that hasn't yet occured - namely that it is pushed into a spiked pit or pushed into an perceptually perfect image of a spiked pit. It's a very odd effect which would allow a simple, non-magical spiked pit to affect a creature at a distance by any means other than perception.

Except the ability to fall prone isn't guaranteed, even when there's a real pit. Someone can fail to fall prone (by failing their save) when the pit is real.

There's no way for the character, in the game reality, to tell the difference between "I failed to fall prone because my player rolled badly" and "I failed to fall prone because this isn't actually hindering terrain". Either way, he was pushed, he tried to fall prone, and he didn't make it.

It only becomes an issue if the characters run a study on the statistical likelihood of evading a push when the pit is real vs illusory. And if the characters are running those sorts of studies, then all manner of game mechanics will be thrown into sharp relief.

So as players, we don't have our characters run statistical studies on game mechanics. And the problem, thus, is not a problem.

Consider the converse, then - would a creature get a save if it's pushed into a spiked pit that looks like normal ground?

I'd say the same thing - the character can always attempt to fall prone when he's being pushed. If the square he's being pushed into is not hindering terrain, he fails. If it is hindering terrain, whether or not he succeeds depends on a saving throw.

So if he's being pushed into what looks like normal ground, he can attempt to fall prone if he wants. If it's actually normal ground, he doesn't make it. If it's actually a disguised spiked pit, whether or not he makes it will depend on what the player rolls.

Basically, the rules only cover certain narrow cases. You may certainly drop prone to avoid being pushed if you're being pushed into a pit or into hindering terrain, but they don't mention other cases.

But they do mention the general case of forced movement - you go where the attacker directs you. So when there isn't a specific exception, like the cliff or hindering terrain, we have a rule for what happens.

-Hyp.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

Then refute the argument. The statement that defines what the post is going to discuss is not the argument.

Refuting that not allowing line of sight is immaterial to defining what is Hindering Terrain: Since the definition of Hindering Terrain dictates that Hindering Terrain allows line of sight, line of sight must be considered when determing if terrain is Hindering Terrain.

[Hindering Terrain: Hindering terrain prevents movement (or severely punishes it) or damages creatures that enter it, but allows line of sight.]

Absent that text, there is no other conclusion that can be reached except that powers are hindering terrain.

Refuting the interpretation that powers are Hindering Terrain: Because there are powers that can't fit into the definition of Hindering Terrain because they block line of sight, all powers cannot be Hindering Terrain.

 

[Skyscraper]

Knowing that, I then think that it is unrealistic to read the D&D rules as if such complexities were not present. I prefer to read them as a lawyer would a piece of legislation or other technical document: keeping in mind the understood purpose of the text, and looking at the language used and how it appears to relate to language used elsewhere in the text, what does it seem that the author was intending to say?

Oh, wait, wait... what was that? Ohhhh, a breath of fresh air.

Sky

 

[Goumindong]

What does that have to do with anything? I have never seen that definition referenced before.

Then you haven't read the thread.

Hypersmurf, i will respond to you as soon as you start taking this discussion seriously and stop pretending to be a child.

 

[Caliban]

Then you haven't read the thread.

Hypersmurf, i will respond to you as soon as you start taking this discussion seriously and stop pretending to be a child.

Goumindong, I can appreciate your frustration. But posting out of frustration when you think people are ignoring your logical arguements isn't going to help your case. Comments like that are against the forum rules and can result in a forced vacation from the boards if a moderator decides to take action.

You might want to consider taking a few deep breaths and calm down, then review your post before hitting submit. It's only a game, and this is only a forum of strangers. Taking it personally isn't the way to go.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Then you haven't read the thread.

Hypersmurf, i will respond to you as soon as you start taking this discussion seriously and stop pretending to be a child.

I can see you are frustrated, but you've got to dial it back a bit otherwise you'll probably end up being booted from the thread (or worse) and I'm sure nobody wants that.

Regards,