Question about the Witch King in LOTR

[Green Knight]

"No man of woman born may harm MacBeth".

Unfortunately for MacBeth, MacDuff was born through a ceasarian. So he was able to kill MacBeth. Likewise, no man could literally kill the Witch King. Only a woman could do it (It may also be likely that it refers to human men. After all, Merry got a good shot in there).

 

[Hypersmurf]

So he was able to kill MacBeth. Likewise, no man could literally kill the Witch King. Only a woman could do it (It may also be likely that it refers to human men. After all, Merry got a good shot in there).

Given that the term "human" is rarely (ever?) used in Tolkien, I'd have preferred to see "No man" exclude both male and female Men.

... leaving it open for all the other races, but warding against Eowyn.

Ah well.

-Hyp.

 

[Michael Morris]

In the book the Nazgul fled when Frodo invoked the name of Elbereth (sp?). This name was painful for them to hear. Aragorn couldn't see them, let alone fight them, in the book. Indeed, none of Frodo's companions saw the Nazgul on Weathertop, though they felt their presence.

I like the movie on it's own merits, and knowing the difficulties involved in composing a book to film I can appreciate the magnificence of PJ's work. That said, there are several parts that are screwed up to the point of being non-sensical, and this is one of them.

Merry was able to hit the Witch King because the sword he weilded, which he got from the Barrow Wight, was made ESPECIALLY to kill the witch king, who was the enemy of the kings of the barrows in life.

I also was sorely dissapointed with RotK's Eowyn scene. It was the only miss in otherwise fine send off for the series, but it was a let down. Of all the scenes in the book that was the last one I thought they would muck with.

 

[kingpaul]

No living man may hinder me

Two of my friends and I were discussing this. I've always held that man meant race, not gender...which is why, when Merry struck first, Eowyn was able to slay the Witch King.

One friend holds that it meant gender, and Merry's strike really didn't do anything.

The third brought up an angle I've never conisdered...he focused on 'living'. His point is that Merry's weapon was from the Barrows...the realm of undeath. Therefore, the weapon was not from the living. As such, it was the blade (wielder didn't matter) that hurt the Witch King.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Two of my friends were discussing this. I've always held that man meant race, not gender...which is why, when Merry struck first, Eowyn was able to slay the Witch King.

"But no living man am I!" Eowyn cried.

The Witch-King leaned close and examined her face. "Don't see no pointy ears," he noted. "No beard, neither. Look like a Man to me! Now, if you'll excuse me while I deal with this Shire-Rat..."

-Hyp.

 

[Buttercup]

That must be in the Hypersmurf translation, then?

 

[Umbran]

Merry was able to hit the Witch King because the sword he weilded, which he got from the Barrow Wight, was made ESPECIALLY to kill the witch king, who was the enemy of the kings of the barrows in life.

I think that's taking it a little too far. There were a bunch of such knives in the barrow, and many barrows. And there's no reason to think the one the hobbits happened into was particularly special. You mean to say that those folks made an entire class of weapons just to kill one man?

Plus, IIRC, you've got the history a bit wrong. I think the barrows are filled with the Black Numenoreans - the men of Aragorn's race after they fell under Sauron's sway. That's why they are wights, they were evil sorcerers in life. The Witch King was the greatest of these. The knife bites not because it was made to work against him specifically, but more generally because it is a magical weapon.

 

[Piratecat]

Merry was able to hit the Witch King because the sword he weilded, which he got from the Barrow Wight, was made ESPECIALLY to kill the witch king, who was the enemy of the kings of the barrows in life.

Not exactly; I just re-read this passage today, and you're confusing things a bit. His weapon was made by someone who happened to hate the Witchking of Angmar and who would have been pleased to see it put to such use, but it was just a "normal" magical elven weapon. The book discusses this on the same page that Merry stabs him.

 

[BSF]

Hmm, I'm going to have to disagree with you here Piratecat. Though, it might be a matter is interpretation. I will quote from my copy of RotK.

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-Downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know it's fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-Kingdom when the Dunedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and it's sorceror king. No other blade, not though mightier hand had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."

As I read it, that blade was made to kill the Witch-King. Which is why the cutting of the barrow downs in FotR bugged me.

Now, the barrow downs were never a place for Black Numenoreons. In fact, the Dunedain of Cardolan took refuge there during the wars with Angmar in Third Age 1409. 200 years later (1636) the barrow wights took residence, from Angmar. The Witch-King, it would seem, wanted to desecrate the area.

As for the scene in the movie, I am curious what Mr. Morris did not like about it.

 

[Piratecat]

Hrmm. I read "no other blade" less literally, but I can see your point. It's hard for me to believe that this happened to be the only blade around that would have worked.