Question for the board - Deities and Domains

[Greenfield]

One of the players at our table wants to run a Cleric of Talia, a deity from Deities and Demigods. As far as I can tell, the deity is purely a gaming fantasy construct, with no historical basis in any culture.

The deity is described as being all encompassing. Her followers swear that she is the only deity, that no others exist and that all other Clerics are false.

She has two aspects: She is the creator, the life giver, the sun. She is also the darkness, death and destruction. There are two separate Domain lists for her, one for each aspect.

The book says that generally her Clerics follow a particular Sect, and that while the sects may cooperate at times, each chooses either the Creator aspect or the Destroyer aspect.

The player wants to have his character worship both, and wants to claim one domain from each list. He said he never knew about the separation, the way the sects choose one aspect ot the other.

He also notes that the book says they "generally" choose such a sect. He wants his character to be the exception.

The domains he wants are War and Magic. The War domain gives his character a martial weapon proficiency and Weapon Focus in Battle Axe, and the Magic Domain lets him use Arcane items. (He was hinting that his character should be able to Scribe arcane scrolls one he gets the Scribe feat, even though he can[t actually prepare any Arcane spells, other than those granted by his Domain. )

Arguments pro and con:

Pro: It does say "generally", not "must".
Con: That "generally" applies to following an organized sect, not the worship of just one aspect. The domain lists are separated for a reason.

What would you say: Allow or disallow?

(Note: My vote is one and only one of eight at the table, and is by no means final).

 

[Herobizkit]

I went wacky looking for this deity until I realized her name is "Taiia" (two I's) and found her located on p. 203 of the 3.5 Deities & Demigods text.

As written, Taiia is meant to exist in a monotheistic campaign world, and as such has a 'light' and 'dark' side. Y9our player wants to walk the line between, assuming there is one, and get benefits from both.

RP-wise, I'm down with a Gray Jedi. I'd likely suggest he be True Neutral in alignment.

Mechanics-wise, it sounds like he wants to somehow (maybe even incorrectly?) abuse that Magic domain. I mean, he could just pay lip service to Taiia and not choose a deity to get the Magic and War domains.

If you (as DM) want to have him be the centre of some potential religious upheaval (by having various sects interact with him), I say giv'er.

 

[delericho]

There's two aspects to the question: is there a rules issue wrt combining those domains (that the player is seeking to abuse), and is there a role-play/story issue with the use of that deity and the proposed heretical character?

Mechanics-wise, I don't think there's a problem, at least no more than there is with the Cleric class generally. As Herobizkit says, per the PHB the character could just not declare a deity and choose those two domains with no issue (obviously, not all settings and not all campaigns allow this).

Story-wise, it sounds okay, except that doing this is going to be a major plot element in the campaign going forward. Not only is the player choosing a deity who denies the existence of all others (in what has presumably, until now, been a polytheistic setting), but he's also choosing to play a heretic within that same deity's church - he wants to reject the existing sects and instead 'walk the line'.

I have a hard time answering the question "would I allow it". The deity Taiia simply doesn't fit any of the campaigns I've run (actually, ever), which means that my answer would be 'no' because of that. However, if I were to run a game in a setting where Taiia fit then I would allow this character - but I'd make sure to point out to the player at the outset that while his character is unusual he's also only one of eight people at the table, so he's not to monopolise the game.

I hope that helps.

 

[Greenfield]

I went wacky looking for this deity until I realized her name is "Taiia" (two I's) and found her located on p. 203 of the 3.5 Deities & Demigods text.

As written, Taiia is meant to exist in a monotheistic campaign world, and as such has a 'light' and 'dark' side. Y9our player wants to walk the line between, assuming there is one, and get benefits from both.

RP-wise, I'm down with a Gray Jedi. I'd likely suggest he be True Neutral in alignment.

Mechanics-wise, it sounds like he wants to somehow (maybe even incorrectly?) abuse that Magic domain. I mean, he could just pay lip service to Taiia and not choose a deity to get the Magic and War domains.

If you (as DM) want to have him be the centre of some potential religious upheaval (by having various sects interact with him), I say giv'er.

Yes, he could be a "Follow a Philosophy" type Cleric who pays lip service to Tallia.

But philosophies don't have favored weapons, so he wouldn't get the Martial Proficiency or Weapon Focus in battle axe that he wants.

I have to question my own judgment on this one. He's been bending and stretching the rules as a matter of course, pulling things from unapproved sources without consultation, and generally been an abuser. While this may not seem like much of an abuse, over all, I've become more than a little sensitized to his abuses.

That makes me question myself: Am I saying "No" because there's something wrong with it, or am I saying no because there's something wrong with him?

Reality is that it's probably some of both.

 

[Celebrim]

Same player as ever?

In general, the Taiia concept was based on the idea of a creating a monotheistic setting that would still support D&D style clerics of all types. You have evil clerics worshiping Taila in her role as destroyer, and good clerics worshiping her in her role as creator and so forth. I don't think she's meant to be a generic deity, and really, since when do players get to impose deities upon a DM's setting?

Things like this make me long for the days when players were officially exhorted not to read the rules books.

And even beyond the fact that he's taking a cleric meant for a particular setting and imposing it on your setting, it doesn't even look like he wants to obey the rules of that setting as well.

What's going on here?

a) He gets to define any combination of domains he likes. Both war and magic is probably a rare combination in official sources.
b) He gets to define the doctrine he likes. As an all encompassing deity, what doesn't Taila represent? He gets to be a one man orthodox church.
c) He gets to subvert the alignment system. However his character acts can probably be argued as being appropriate to the deities ethos. It's probably to some extent a variation of the old, "I get all the advantages of being ruthlessly evil, but all the advantages of having 'good' written on my character sheet."

Basically, I think he wants to be a cleric without any interference from the DM. All and all, that's not so bad. I'm generally OK inventing deities to suit a player's tastes and desires, and this isn't so far out of line of that.

Where I think that this particular player might be going though is a bit more aggressive than that. So long as you don't let him pull the whole, "Since I'm a loyal follower of an omnipotent deity, I ought to have narrative control over the game (ergo, why wouldn't Taila do everything I want her to do)", you will probably be fine.

I should note that monotheism is a heresy punishable by death in most of my game world. You go into a town teaching that only one deity exists or that only one deity is worthy of worship, and they'll have you tied to a stake before you can check out of the inn.

 

[Elf Witch]

Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.

As others have said that deity is usually meant to be in monotheistic setting. I could see using it in a polytheistic setting as these clerics don't believe any other gods are real. I could see it being an interesting role playing choice but that is not what it sounds like this player wants he is to put it bluntly acting like a munchkin. I would only allow it if he choose a sect and took the domains that come with it.

 

[MarkB]

Personally I'd be tempted to let him have his concept, and then nail him to it. If he ever stops believing, and preaching, that there is no true god but Taiia, he risks breaking faith with her and losing his powers. If he ever stops walking that precise line between light and dark, the same thing happens. If he ever encounters members of the more orthodox Taiia-worshipping faith in the gameworld, then the light-siders and dark-siders alike will consider him an abomination and a mockery of their beliefs.

 

[Nergal Pendragon]

The deity is actually based on Hindu deities; that's part of why the deity has multiple arms in art. That's part of why the deity has the duality of both Creator and Destroyer.

That said, as others have said, it's really intended to be a monotheistic setting. But that does not mean you can't have it in a polytheistic setting; just have it as this weird religion that denies the existence of all other gods. Maybe make it so that clerics of those other gods are offended? This could be a massive source of conflict between him and pretty much every other divine caster.

 

[Greenfield]

If I was the only DM in the group, *AND* I was looking for an ongoing plot hook, I might do as several have suggested.

In the past, when I've done that sort of thing, it ends up becoming an ongoing contest between myself and the player. It makes me focus on reining them in, and it keeps me from giving spotlight time to the other players at the table. That's not fun for me, and it's not fair to them. Ongoing "Battle of Wills" is tiring.

One potential non-solution I've been tempted to suggest is to let him dual class, cleric of the Creator Aspect and Cleric of the Destroyer aspect.

He'd end up with four Domains, and a double dose of lower level spells, but would advance in effective level at half speed. If he chose it, I'd require that he stick with the dual class all the way.

He'd be kick ass at lower levels, and hopelessly outclassed by 6th or 7th. At 5th level, our other casters are getting their 3rd level spells, and by 7th they're getting 4ths. At 5th level he'll be getting his first 2nd level spell, and at 7th he'd be getting his first 3rd. And he'd fall farther and farther behind, gaining new spell levels at half the rate of anyone else.

It's a tempting trap, since it looks so juicy at the lower levels. Double portions of all the spells. But by 20th level you're just finishing learning 5ths, and you'll never get anything higher unless you spend Epic feats for more spell levels.

But it's a trap for the DM as well. Once again, he ends up being the focal point of the campaign, and there are a lot of other players who deserve a fair share of on-stage time.

 

[MarkB]

The whole multi-DM thing seems to be a tricky aspect here, since it also robs you of the other simple solution here - saying "I just don't think this deity is a good fit for this campaign" - unless the other DMs feel the same way.

One option I'd suggest is simply to say that, as a worshipper of both aspects of Taiia, he is free to choose either of her domain lists - but not both. He must choose both his domains from the same list.