Question (Potential Breaking Combo)

[Hypersmurf]

Only the strongest damage from an overlapping zone applies. So that isn't a big deal. Its just broken when you start yo-yo'ing enemies in and out of it without spell accuracy.

Consider a Wall of Fire and a Blade Barrier in an interlocking "C" shape:

[color=red]WW
W[/color][color=blue]BB[/color]
[color=red]WW[/color][color=blue]B
 BB[/color]

By Pushing someone 4 squares in a straight line, with no zig-zags, you get him to enter the Wall of Fire's space twice, and enter the Blade Barrier's space twice. Overlapping, no big deal; alternating, it gets nastier.

Given that Push doesn't forbid zig-zags, of course, you can get even nastier by having two parallel barriers:

[color=red]W[/color][color=blue]B[/color]
[color=red]W[/color][color=blue]B[/color]
[color=red]W[/color][color=blue]B[/color]
[color=red]W[/color][color=blue]B[/color]
[color=red]W[/color][color=blue]B[/color]

Now with a Push 5, you can hit five entries by zig-zagging. With a Slide 8, of course, the yo-yo goes from "damage per 2 squares" to "damage per square".

Forced movement ignores occupied squares. So long as the end point is unoccupied there is no problem with shoving someone through an enemy or friendly.

Clear Path: Forced movement can't move a target into a space it couldn't enter by walking. The target can't be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space.

He can enter an ally's space by walking. He can't enter an enemy's space by walking. Therefore forced movement can't move him into an enemy's space, though it can move him through an ally's space.

Theoretically you can even use push/pull/slide powers to move friendlies across pits so long as the start and end point are on solid ground(as the power resolves instantly and nothing prevents you from pushing over a pit, only through barriers)

If he enters a space above a pit, he gets a saving throw to catch himself before he falls. If he doesn't save, he falls.

-Hyp.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Sorry for adding to the confusion, but neither blade barrier nor wall of fire are zones.
I had calculated a scenario including them along with an actual zone some time ago, and I had mostly forgotten the details.

It works, though.

 

[Goumindong]

Clear Path: Forced movement can't move a target into a space it couldn't enter by walking. The target can't be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space.

He can enter an ally's space by walking. He can't enter an enemy's space by walking. Therefore forced movement can't move him into an enemy's space, though it can move him through an ally's space.

Only at the end destination. If you cannot move through enemies at all then "clear path" also means you can't push over edges(since it could only enter that square by flying) though difficult terrain with a low move enemy (since it could not walk through that square even when shifting) and cannot push flying enemies.(since they can go nowhere by walking).

There is no reason you should ever have to zig-zag an enemy on a push, pull, or slide

By Pushing someone 4 squares in a straight line, with no zig-zags, you get him to enter the Wall of Fire's space twice, and enter the Blade Barrier's space twice. Overlapping, no big deal; alternating, it gets nastier.

Takes two dailies, good coordination, and a perfect alignment for the enemy. I.E. not a big deal.

Now with a Push 5, you can hit five entries by zig-zagging. With a Slide 8, of course, the yo-yo goes from "damage per 2 squares" to "damage per square".

Yes, and its utterly broken.

 

[Danceofmasks]

There is a reason to zig zag via push.
It's legal and cool.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Only at the end destination.

Where do you find that?

If you cannot move through enemies at all then "clear path" also means you can't push over edges(since it could only enter that square by flying)

Nothing stops you walking off a cliff. You just fall when you get there... which is what happens when forced movement moves you off a cliff, as well.

I can walk into the square adjacent to the cliff edge; I can't walk into the square adjacent to that.

though difficult terrain with a low move enemy (since it could not walk through that square even when shifting)

It would have to be a very low move and a very high difficulty to prevent someone getting there with a double-move walk!

Plus, given that one of the properties of forced movement is "Ignore Difficult Terrain", one arguably doesn't take the movement cost of the terrain into account when determining if someone can be shifted into it.

and cannot push flying enemies.(since they can go nowhere by walking).

That one may require special consideration, true.

But whether or not flying enemies can be pushed doesn't change that a square containing an enemy is not one that can be walked into, so nor can you be forced into it.

There is no reason you should ever have to zig-zag an enemy on a push, pull, or slide

You don't have to, but nor are you prevented from doing so.

On the other hand, it's possible you can't shove someone into a Wall of Fire or Blade Barrier at all.

Both are Area Attacks, and we know that Area Attacks "affect multiple targets, or create an obstacle". Since neither Wall of Fire nor Blade Barrier affects targets, the powers must create an obstacle; thus the Wall and the Barrier are obstacles.

And the "Clear Path" note on Forced Movement specifies "The target can't be forced into an obstacle."

Sorry for adding to the confusion, but neither blade barrier nor wall of fire are zones.

Interesting catch. The overlapping most-damage provision of zones doesn't apply to conjurations, does it?

I'm not sure why WoF and BB aren't zones, but that's a separate question.

-Hyp.

 

[Goumindong]

Where do you find that?

Its right there where it says "into" and not "through"

I can walk into the square adjacent to the cliff edge; I can't walk into the square adjacent to that.

No, you cannot walk into the square adjacent to the cliff edge. You can jump into that square(fleetingly). You can climb into the square below that square. You can walk into the square below that square(but you cannot push vertically). But you cannot walk into the space adjacent to the cliff. That would require you to be able to fly or levitate(with no more than 4 squares between it and the ground).

ED: Another interesting thing this rule does is allow you to push enemies over water, only if they have used the water walking ritual or other spell/ability/power etc.

It would have to be a very low move and a very high difficulty to prevent someone getting there with a double-move walk!

You don't need to stop a double-move walk, only a single move walk. Just like you can't run or charge and say it works as well.

Plus, given that one of the properties of forced movement is "Ignore Difficult Terrain", one arguably doesn't take the movement cost of the terrain into account when determining if someone can be shifted into it.

Only if the creature ignores difficult terrain when it walks. Since it walking is the requirement.

Of course, creatures who cannot walk(slimes etc) then cannot be pushed at all.

But whether or not flying enemies can be pushed doesn't change that a square containing an enemy is not one that can be walked into, so nor can you be forced into it.

Enemies are not objects(otherwise there would be no line of effect past enemies and no point in defining cover through them) or obstacles. And so their presence is irrelevant to whether or not the square can be walked into. It only hinders the creatures movement.

You don't have to, but nor are you prevented from doing so.

Yes, and the fact that you are not prevented from doing so is retarded.

On the other hand, it's possible you can't shove someone into a Wall of Fire or Blade Barrier at all.

Both are Area Attacks, and we know that Area Attacks "affect multiple targets, or create an obstacle". Since neither Wall of Fire nor Blade Barrier affects targets, the powers must create an obstacle; thus the Wall and the Barrier are obstacles.

And the "Clear Path" note on Forced Movement specifies "The target can't be forced into an obstacle."

Wall of Fire effects multiple targets. All with its area. In the same way a stinking cloud effects multiple targets. All with its area. Would you say that you cannot move into a stinking cloud because there were no creatures in its area when the spell was cast?

Interesting catch. The overlapping most-damage provision of zones doesn't apply to conjurations, does it?

I'm not sure why WoF and BB aren't zones, but that's a separate question.

-Hyp.

ED: But really its because they want conjurations like astral weapon to be able to move through zones and effect targets. I.E. they want you to be able to lay down a zone, and then wall it in and not have the creature ignore some of the effects.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Its right there where it says "into" and not "through"

You can't move through a square without moving into it along the way!

No, you cannot walk into the square adjacent to the cliff edge.

Why not?

You don't need to stop a double-move walk, only a single move walk. Just like you can't run or charge and say it works as well.

If someone can walk into a square by taking a double move, it's not a square they can't walk into.

Only if the creature ignores difficult terrain when it walks. Since it walking is the requirement.

It's required that they be able to walk into the square, and the ability ignores difficult terrain, so the ability ignores difficult terrain while determining if they can walk into the square.

Of course, creatures who cannot walk(slimes etc) then cannot be pushed at all.

Actually, I'm not convinced that oozes or flying creatures can't walk, in the sense of 'take the walk action'. A flying creature can't shift, but it can 'walk' or 'run' while using its fly speed.

Enemies are not objects(otherwise there would be no line of effect past enemies and no point in defining cover through them) or obstacles. And so their presence is irrelevant to whether or not the square can be walked into. It only hinders the creatures movement

Enemies are not objects, nor obstacles. But they prevent a creature from being able to walk into their space, and thus prevent forced movement.

Yes, and the fact that you are not prevented from doing so is retarded.

Oh, I'm making no judgement as to that! Just the legality.

Wall of Fire effects multiple targets. All with its area. In the same way a stinking cloud effects multiple targets. All with its area.

No, Wall of Fire is not a power that affects targets. It affects creatures in its area, and creatures adjacent to its area, but the power has no target entry.

Stinking Cloud affects targets - "Targt: Each creature in burst".

Would you say that you cannot move into a stinking cloud because there were no creatures in its area when the spell was cast?

Not at all. The Stinking Cloud power is an area attack that affects multiple targets, whether or not there are any targets when any given instance of Stinking Cloud is created. The Wall of Fire power is an area attack that creates an obstacle.

-Hyp.

 

[Goumindong]

No, Wall of Fire is not a power that affects targets. It affects creatures in its area, and creatures adjacent to its area, but the power has no target entry.

Stinking Cloud affects targets - "Targt: Each creature in burst".

If there are no targets in the burst then it has no targets. Ergo it must be an obstacle since it does not effect targets.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If there are no targets in the burst then it has no targets. Ergo it must be an obstacle since it does not effect targets.

Sure Strike is a power that deals damage. Sometimes when it's used, it might miss, and on that occasion no damage is dealt; but the Sure Strike power is a power that deals damage.

Stinking Cloud is a power that targets multiple creatures. Sometimes it might be cast into empty squares, and on that occasion no creatures are targeted, but the Stinking Cloud power is a power that targets multiple creatures.

-Hyp.

 

[Goumindong]

Sure Strike is a power that deals damage. Sometimes when it's used, it might miss, and on that occasion no damage is dealt; but the Sure Strike power is a power that deals damage.

Stinking Cloud is a power that targets multiple creatures. Sometimes it might be cast into empty squares, and on that occasion no creatures are targeted, but the Stinking Cloud power is a power that targets multiple creatures.

-Hyp.

Sure Strike is not a power that deals damage when it misses. When it misses it is a power that deals no damage. Ergo, if you have an ability that keys off a power doing damage it will not apply if the power does not.

Such when Stinking Cloud its targeted against multiple creatures it indeed is a power that targets multiple creatures. But when it does not, then it indeeds is not a power that targets multiple creatures.

And since then it is not a power that targets multiple creatures and it is an area power it must be a power that causes an obstruction when not cast onto multiple targets.