Question: Shapechange & Solar

[Dthamilaye]

Hello.

A player in my group (wizard/EK/etcetc) uses Polymorphs and now Shapechange to transform into a form with good battle stats to do some fighting.

What I would like to ask is that what properties does he exactly get from the following forms if he Shapechanges into them?

Angel, Solar
Devil, Horned

I know he gets the physical stats and Natural Armour and adds any item and spell bonuses to them.

For example, for the Solar, under question are the following abilities:
-Any wielded weapons are considered Epic & Good aligned for DR purposes
- +4 bonus to poison saves
-DR 15/epic&evil
-Darkvision
-Immunity to acid, cold, petrification
-Angels Protective Aura (Su)
-Regeneration 15 (Ex)
-Resistance to electricity 10 & fire 10
-SR 32
-Tongues (Su)
-Feats (I have ruled that he does not get these anyway, even if he should)

With Horned Devil, the following are under question:
-DR 10/good & silver
-Darkvision
-Immunity to Fire & Poison
-Resistance to acid & cold
-Regeneration 5 (Ex)
-See in darkness (Su)
-SR 28
-Telepathy 100ft


I understand Shapechange should give all (Su) abilities, though I have clearly said to the player(s) that I keep the right to Rule0 any (Su) ability that a monster could have. (No Beholder Antimagic ray, Zodiak wish etc).
How about the other abilities than (Su)? Should Shapechange give 15/epic&evil DR, 15 regeneration, SR 32 and immunity to 2 energy on top of stat buffing, protective aura and Tongues?

If shapechange gives all the above according to the text of the spell, do you think it is correct from the balance point of view when compared to other 9th level spells and what can be achieved with Shapechange in game? (Yes, I know about MDJ. Some Rings of Greater dispelling and those are not a problem).

Thank You.

 

[Thanee]

As for Shapechange: "You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own."

So you get pretty much everything, except spell-like abilities.

Polymorph doesn't grant you much of that stuff, since you do not gain any (Su) abilities and only (Ex) attacks and no qualities.

Bye
Thanee

 

[andargor]

Yes, Shapechange is one of the best 9th level spells. But 9th level spells are by definition the most powerful, as well.

If your campaign is very combat oriented, then I would say that the Regeneration ability is the one that will cause you the most problems. Makes the player nigh invulnerable to most creatures, except those that can dish out so much damage that they might kill the PC outright in a single full attack action.

If there's anything to Rule 0, that's it, but don't forget you are dealing with a 17th level+ character, and as such he/she might feel cheated if you nerf her most powerful spells. Epic is not far off, so how you deal with the situation now will set the tone later.

Also, I would see no problem in expecting XP cost for Su abilities, such as the Zodiak's Wish to avoid abuse problems.

Andargor

 

[andargor]

Oh, I forgot: a Solar has 22 HD. The errata'd version in the SRD limits Shapechange to forms with the caster's level in HD, or less (max 25 HD).

He could manage a Pit Fiend, however, if he/she is 18th level.

Andargor

 

[Dthamilaye]

Thanks for the answers.

It was as I was afraid of... yes, my campaign is very combat oriented, so the shapechange really affects it quite alot. Even if it is a 9th level spell, it surpasses many other (all?) 9th lvl spells in power. It is one spell that gives you a plethora of abilities. And you can change the abilities as a free action 1/round.

I'm probably going to rule0 and dump the regeneration and SR at least.

As for my party, one is now 22nd level , others are at 20th level. Because everyone of them has ECL of 23, I have already used epic things against them. It is a high powered campaign, but still the shapechange gives me headaches. Happily the group has not gotten any greater counterspelling rings yet, and no-one of them knows Reactive counterspelling -feat.

Edit: The 20th level polymorphing caster has an item that gives him +2 caster levels (as the ioun stone, only slotted), so that he has ability to become solar already.

Thanks again .

 

[glass]

With polymorph you get bonus feats of the form but not normal 1 + 1/3 feats. I don't have my books with me to check, but my guess would be Shapechange works the same way in this respect.


glass.

 

[bluebudda]

Even if it is a 9th level spell, it surpasses many other (all?) 9th lvl spells in power.

Your players must not being using Gate properly if you are afraid of Shape Change (who cares about 1K EX when it let's you beat things that are more powerfull than you).