D&D General [+] Racially-Discriminating Afterlife Systems

[Ruin Explorer]

There's no reason all species should have the same souls beyond that it makes things a lot more straightforward and consistent, and means you don't get into weird situations where some kind of soul-eating monster wouldn't want to eat PC X because he has "the wrong kind of soul" or whatever.

However, if you don't have everyone sort of roughly sharing souls, it does raise an enormous number of questions re: half-races and derived races and potentially re: lineages and so on. I'm surprised no-one has brought this up already. Would half-elves be reincarnated or operate like humans, for example? If one or the other, why? Can they change it? (I'd be surprised if the FR had a consistent answer on that!).

Basically having different souls and thus different afterlives for different beings is kind of a can of worms, and it's up to you to decide if you want to open it, and if you do, how far you open it and how many worms get out (but it's probably gonna be a lot if you open it at all!). There may be benefits to opening it, of course, as with so many cans of worms.

 

[the Jester]

(Disclaimer: This thread isn't for debate, it's for positive, constructive discussion. My opinion on not liking racially-discriminating afterlife systems will remain the same whether or not you argue. If you do argue, you will be reported for trying to derail the thread.)

Not sure if you're aware, but you can designate a thread as a +thread in order to accomplish this. If you do, I think you can expect a different tone and style of moderation than for a standard thread (which usually allows for plenty of disagreement and debate).

 

[the Jester]

I feel like there is a conceptual problem of calling different afterlives for different races "discriminatory" when, in D&D terms, beings of different races are very different kinds of beings altogether-- I mean, by all means it is perfectly reasonable to assume that a soul is a soul is a soul in D&D... but it's far from a given, when those races are canonically created differently, at different times, by different gods.

I mean, perhaps human souls do go to the halls of their patron deities upon death-- as one assumes-- but maybe elf souls reincarnate endlessly because they cannot do otherwise, because whTat an elf calls their "soul" is not at all the same thing as a human soul.

This was explicitly the case in 1e. See: Deities and Demigods; elves not being subject to raise dead; etc.

 

[the Jester]

Would half-elves be reincarnated or operate like humans, for example? If one or the other, why? Can they change it? (I'd be surprised if the FR had a consistent answer on that!).

In 1e, half-elves could be raised and therefore had souls, not spirits like elves.

As to why, my guess would be it's derived from Tolkien- with "true" elves being functionally immortal spirit-beings and not really humanoids in the same sense that humans and hobbits are. There's the whole "choosing Middle-Earth and mortality" thing. But I'm just guessing.

As for consistency, I'll just go over there and whistle.

 

[Alzrius]

In 1e, half-elves could be raised and therefore had souls, not spirits like elves.

This was the case in 2E also, as the text for raise dead is identical to the 1E spell in terms of who it can bring back: dwarves, gnomes, halflings, half-elves, and humans.

Interestingly, half-orcs apparently can't be brought back this way either, something which - while almost certainly coincidental - dovetails with what I wrote before about half-orcs being spiritually unclean in AD&D 1E.

 

[Morrus]

If someone could convince me in debate and discussion (also called arguing, and that is what a thread is for, and you cannot convince me that this is not so, no matter what you argue, but still i will not report you for trying to do) that OPs view is better than my own than i happily adopt it.

This is a [+] thread, which means it's not open for debate. If this is a topic you'd like to debate, you are welcome to start your own thread and debate to your heart's content, but [+] threads are for engaging positively with the OP.

 

[Faolyn]

Or keep the different Pantheons of Gods and just create a single Afterlife, Greco-Roman style. You die? You go down the River Styx to Hades and live in the Underworld.

No need to have 2 dozen different heavenly demiplanes, after all.

With the gods (or their servitors) occasionally recruiting lesser servitors and the like from this one afterlife, possibly. But then it's not a reward or punishment for the soul; it's a job.

 

[SehanineMoonbow]

Perhaps it is a reward to elves. Maybe elves like they idea of experiencing existence (and differing existences) more than hanging out in Arvandor for eternity. Maybe Arvandor is a boring place and they get tired of it quickly. Maybe the elves pity the other races, wondering why their gods punish them with only a single mortal lifetime?

Elves have strong ties to Arvandor, and it has always been seen as a reward (so I don't think they would view it as boring). However, elves have also believed in reincarnation, but, at least until MToF, it was never something that was forced on them (MToF presents the reincarnation as a punishment, because they are denied permeant residence in Arvandor, due to what the "primal elves" did).

But your last sentence (which I put in bold) got me thinking--elven "souls" have long been called spirits, and, as seeing themselves as creatures of the natural world, reincarnation is something elves can experience--it just wasn't forced on them. But you make an interesting point--even if it was optional, elves could experience another lifetime if they wanted.

 

[Dire Bare]

Some points of thought: fantasy (and sci-fi) "races" are really supercharged ethnicities or cultures. If you have a fantasy human culture based on Norse mythology, you'd expect members of that culture who venerate the Norse gods to go to Valhalla when they die. Members of a culture based on Greek mythology might go to Olympus.

So, for elves to go to Arvandor, orcs to Acheron, and dwarves to . . . wherever dwarves go . . . makes sense in that regard. In my own world-building, I wouldn't lock in those choices . . . a mortal who wasn't born of the Norsefolk, but was raised by them, or perhaps came to venerate the Norse pantheon later in life . . . would also go to Valhalla. I also would make sure that each "racial afterlife" would make sense, and have both heaven (reward) and hell (punishment) . . . or perhaps a neutral Hades-like realm (the Shadowfell?).

The nature of any cultural or racial afterlifes would track closely with the design of any cultures or races in the game, of course. Make sure you don't design always-evil and/or always-savage orcs, and the orcish ideas of heaven/hell shouldn't be standard D&D tropes either. Don't ditch Acheron, but perhaps reimagine it to be an interesting place a warrior just might like to end up in after death, much like Valhalla or Stovokor.

And of course, the afterlife doesn't have to be fair or even offer a "reward" option. Real life cultures often have very unfairly designed afterlifes, at least to modern sensibilities. A great adventure seed straight out of Greek myth (and probably others too) is for the heroes to travel to an unpleasant afterlife to rescue a companion unfairly sent there (or even fairly sent there, by the rules of that belief system).

Some other points of thought: Do you distinguish between "spirit" races and "mortal" races in your campaign? They might have different kinds of souls, or no souls at all, and the rules might be different due to metaphysics. In D&D canon (not that it is consistent), devils, demons, celestials and other "outsiders" don't (usually) have individual souls, but rather are animated by the force of their plane of existence. And when they die, their lifeforces simply return to the plane and their individual existence is over. If a devil is slain in the hells, it's "soul" is simply reabsorbed into the planescape. Sometimes powerful outsiders develop unique souls over time, or acquire them through other means.

Whereas mortal souls are different, they persist after death and are independent of the planar orrerry. Which is what makes them so valuable to planar beings and the gods. Hence the competition for worshippers and the collection of mortal souls in the various heavens and hells of the D&D multiverse.

Are elves mortal? Or are they immortal spirits? Elves are descended from the eladrin (I know, what exactly eladrin are has evolved significantly), celestial spirits of Arvandor, who were thrown out of elvish heaven and set upon the earth to live mortal lives . . . . making elves (or other fantastical races) a different class of being than other races is an okay choice, or ditching that idea and making them follow the same rules is okay too.

I liked how elves were treated in the Ghostwalk setting (3E era), when the elves died, their souls were absorbed into trees and overtime these spirit trees took on a sleepy sentience made of the collective spirits of deceased elves. Using that idea . . . is that the natural thing to happen to an elven soul? Or is there an elven ritual that bonds deceased souls to trees, to prevent them from passing naturally into the afterlife?

 

[Disgruntled Hobbit]

It's weird that elves only go to Arvandor and might not stay with their friends or non-elven loved ones. But it's also odd that a NG husband and LG wife would be separated on death. Or be separated from a child for similar reasons

You can justify it more with elves as they're going to their creator. It's elven heaven. Corellon called dibs on their souls
Although, deities might have arrangements with other allied gods. Such as Moradin taking an elf that follows him. Which feels unlikely, and something the gods hash out individually