D&D General Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism

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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
This is also one of those cases where "Immersion" serves to confuse rather than inform the statement; I'm perfectly capable of being only-IC without being immersed. The latter is a much deeper experience than simply making all decisions from in character POV.

I mostly mean bleed or emotional immersion in the situation and characters. Coming at those decisions from a place of empathy for the characters they are portraying. Being present in the moment. Pretty much what I would expect from another actor I was working a scene with when I did amateur theater. It's also pretty much the only sort of immersion I personally give two figs about on either side of the screen.

It's about being present in the moment, feeling the tension, and playing with curiosity. Not engaging in all the myriad ways to create emotional distance from the situation or the characters. This scene from Fight Club gets at what I'm looking for.

 

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Thomas Shey

Legend
It amazes me how many problems people imagine for various games - and here we may also include 5e D&D - that are easily fixed with people talking things out as adults.

I have to suggest that's because people are very experienced with the fact that a large number of people are really poor at doing that at least some of the time.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I mostly mean bleed or emotional immersion in the situation and characters. Coming at those decisions from a place of empathy for the characters they are portraying. Being present in the moment. Pretty much what I would expect from another actor I was working a scene with when I did amateur theater. It's also pretty much the only sort of immersion I personally give two figs about on either side of the screen.

With no offense, I suspect the vast majority of people playing, even those who are religious about staying in-character in their decisions, are rarely if ever playing that deep in.
 

pemerton

Legend
With no offense, I suspect the vast majority of people playing, even those who are religious about staying in-character in their decisions, are rarely if ever playing that deep in.
While I suspect that @Campbell is more ambitious than I am in the degree of intensity he is aspiring to, I can fully understand where he is coming from.

I recall a long time ago when I was playing in a convention freeform game. My PC was the mother of the key NPC around whom all the action had turned, and it was my PC's ex-husband who had kidnapped our son and taken him to Hell. At that time I had a good friend whose father had left their family a few years ago, and whose mother - whom I knew well - would have been about the same age as my PC. I drew on that relationship to help me understand how my PC might be feeling and respond. I remember crying at a certain point in play, as a result of having created a particular feeling within myself that I intended to be my PC's response to what was happening.

I don't know exactly how close what I've described is to @Campbell's approach and aspirations - I have only a tiny bit of acting experience and was bad at it. But it's one way of illustrating what I am looking for in inhabitation of my character. As I'm a lot older now than I was then, and have had many more experiences in my life, I think I'm better at imaginative projection without having to look to a particular real person I know as a "model" or "pathway" into my PC.

EDIT: That said, my idea of Aramina is based, in part, on a person I once knew.
 
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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
For what it's worth I don't view my aspirations as all that lofty. I know where I'm strong and where I'm weak. My games are never polished or well plotted. I put my energy into that raw emotive stuff. My aim is more like F/X drama (especially Sons of Anarchy), the better Underworld movies or early seasons of Smallville. Emotive, raw, unpolished. That's how I like my music, film, television and role playing. More about the individual scenes and relationships then where things are going in the plot. Whatever plot or situation is going on is more of an excuse to explore relationships and character stuff.

Some GMs are amazing at world building. Some at crafting stories they present to their players. I am better at living in those tense moments and portraying characters in them. I don't think any particular aim is more worthwhile. I just know where I'm strongest and play to my strengths.

I know us theater geeks are a bit more rare in this hobby than fantasy novel fans, but I assure we do exist in large enough numbers to find each other. Especially in the LARP, White Wolf and indie scenes.
 

Also, if the setting is a real world one, or an imaginary prepared one, or some intersection, then authority can easily by shared.

When me and my friends played a session of Wuthering Heights, one of the PCs worked in a socialist bookshop. I decided that, in late 19th century London, that would be in Soho. Then when - due to a series of misadventures - that PC and an NPC had to carry the body of the other PC, now dead to dump it in the Thames, I just Googled up a map of London, screen-shared via Zoom, to confirm that my recollection that it wasn't very far was an accurate one.

In our Prince Valiant game, we track location within Britain on the map printed on the inside cover of Pendragon, and we track location in Europe and West Asia based on maps I photocopied from a Penguin historical atlas of the middle ages. This is all public knowledge, not GM-authority-over-backstory stuff.

In our MHRP game, when action took place in Washington, DC - a place I've never been to but some of our group members have - we again used our shared knowledge to narraet things like Nightcrawler teleporting to the top of the Capitol Dome, War Machine hanging a supervillain from the top of the Washington Monument, Ice Man freezing the lake/pond/moat at the base of the monument, hijinks involving Stark-tech orbital reentry vehicle on display at the Smithsonian, etc.

In one of our BW games that I was GMing, the PCs ended up in the Bright Desert, being abandoned there by an Elven searfarer who had rescued them from a shipwreck, but with whom they had subsequently quarelled. No map-and-key resolution was used to determine that this was where they were set ashore: we knew in general terms that the PCs had been shipwrecked off the Wild Coast, and given (i) that it was possible that they should be sailing in the vicinity of the Bright Desert coast, and (ii) that that was where I wanted the action to go (as GM) and (iii) that at least one of the players wanted the action to go there too (the player of the sorcerer with the cursed angel feather) and (iv) that another player, as his PC, was happy to be some distance away from and hence not returning to the Elven Kingdom of Celene, then (v) I just used my GM scene-framing power to stipulate that that's where the PCs ended up! But there was no secret GM backstory about this - everyone can see the map, see the general area the PCs are sailing in, and understand the basis on which I made the stipulation that I did. (While the GM may never speak the name of their move, the players don't lose their ability to identify the what and why of it!)

Later on, the sorcerer PC wanted some allies to help him deal with some Orcs. The player, who had been doing some Googling about Greyhawk in his spare time, declared "Everyone knows that Suel tribesmen are thick as thieves in the Bright Desert!" and declared his Circles check. There is no basis here for me to contest his conception of the fiction - my job is just to adjudicate the check. Given that the character has the Outcast setting as one of his Lifepaths, and furthermore we know that that involved spending time in the Abor-Alz just north of the Bright Desert, the check was clearly a permissible one. So I set the appropriate difficulty and he rolled the dice. As it turned out he failed, and so the the leader of the tribesmen who he met turned out to be an old nemesis, rather than a prospective ally. And things went on from there.

I'm setting out these examples to show how I think that shared authority over backstory/setting is perfectly workable.

I agree with all this, both as a description of @EzekielRaiden's play and as an account of an approach to setting in a "no/low myth" context. As you can see from the first half of this post, I think the same basic points can apply to a pre-established setting too.
Right, if we set a 'Trail of Cthulhu' game in Victorian London it would certainly bind the players AND the GM in many respects, as you describe, to stick to details that match reality as known in that setting. I don't think this alters the equation of how things are authored, in and of itself. It may be that some systems are more appropriate to this kind of play than others. You could, and I'm sure its been done, devise a PbtA game along those lines. It just wouldn't have as part of its process creating the setting from whole cloth like DW does.
 


This actually sounds more like conch-passing than PbtA. I get where you're going, but in PbtA these things should have dramatic weight and be tested with the system rather than just built out like this. Unless this is really background stuff just being built out to frame a scene that goes to the dramatic need?
I was more thinking of a game being set up and starting at that point, so maybe there's a desire to kind of flesh things out a bit and let the players have some 'rope'. Yes, moves would be likely to exist in a game of 'PbtA Detectives', though they might have a bit more specific parameters than those in say DW. Partly it might depend on the exact sub-genre. If the PC is basically Sherlock Holmes, for example, then its a foregone conclusion they observe everything, and almost always reach the correct conclusions (though now and then Holmes does out think himself).
It works because it's been around for 40+ years. It appears to be growing at a nice clip. And people are getting handsome compensation for doing things just like this (looking at you Critical Role).
I think there's a lot of pretending it works, and it does SORT OF work, but not very well, and there are failures in practically every session of most games. Longer term GMs just convince themselves that this is the best way, or else go to the dark side ;)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
With no offense, I suspect the vast majority of people playing, even those who are religious about staying in-character in their decisions, are rarely if ever playing that deep in.
Yeah, I'll get behind this.

There's the ideal, and then there's the reality. Any resemblance between these two things is often all too temporary. :)
 

I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying here, and agree.

But it appears that some confusion is caused by the role of fronts as a GM tool: as I understand it, fronts are roughly GM imagination in advance used as a basis for making moves. This seems to get mushed together with prepared backstory as a basis for "binding" framing and resolution.
Right. As @Ovinomancer said, the front and its dangers are not instantiated until they enter play. There's no pregenerated backstory here, just stored up improvisation, basically. The GM invents a front, and describes to himself some dooms and dangers associated with it which he considers likely to become relevant in play. Realistically they probably WILL see use, in most cases, assuming a fairly competent GM. OTOH their exact details, timing of their appearance, etc. will all be situational.
 

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