Rainbow Ray vs Scorching Ray

[Nifft]

Higher level spell also means able to pierce spell resistance better.

Uh... only if the caster is also higher level.

-- N

 

[Will]

Er. Der. I meant saves. :/

Which... I guess they don't get? Nevermind, I'll go stand in the corner.

 

[Werebat]

Higher level spell also means able to pierce spell resistance better.

As for me, no, because I've never seen Rainbow beam. What book is it from?

They're both 2nd level spells. Metamagicking Rainbow Beam with Split Ray makes it fill a 4th level slot, but it's still technically a 2nd level spell. So no, it won't. My fault for not being clear with terms, though.

Rainbow Beam is in Spell Compendium, right next to the similar (and more closely balanced with its PHB cousin) Rainbow Blast (which is a multi-energy variant of Lightning Bolt).

There are a lot of rainbow themed spells in SC, which is mostly where I got the idea for this character.

Again, from level 15 on, I think Rainbow Beam and Scorching Ray are quite balanced. It's the 3-4 level lag behind in damage before both spells reach their cap that irks me. Other than level 6, where both spells do roughly the same damage and Rainbow Beam is the clear winner, Sorching Ray usually ends up doing twice the damage of Rainbow Beam.

Actually, at level 15, a Split Ray Rainbow Beam (4th level slot) does 10d12, which is clearly better than the 16d6 put out by a Split Ray Scorching Ray. And from level 12 on, the Split Ray Rainbow Beam does 8d12 damage, which is the same average damage as the Split Ray Scorching Ray. So if you invest in Split Ray, the spell isn't so terrible compared to Scorching Ray once you hit high levels. But you have to invest in that feat and use it.

Hmm... My build has Rainbow Beam as a Domain Wizard spell, which means it will be cast at +1 Caster Level... If I take Arcane Thesis, that bumps the CL up another +2, and wild mage will add +.5 levels on average. Of course the same tricks could work with Scorching Ray but the point is the spells will even out more quickly for me (by level 9 or so). Twinned Ocular Rainbow Beams are indeed potent, just very feat-intensive.

- Ron ^*^

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Most powergamers would agree that Scorching Ray is among the most powerful 2nd level spells (perhaps the top), I don't think comparing every new spell to it for game balance is wise, personally. People aren't arguing that it should do 50% less damage because it imposes dazzle, anyways, the argument is towards bypassing energy resistance (Fire is, hands down, the most common elemental resistance found or warded against-the ability to bypass it is *not* negligible). So instead lets compare it to another 2nd level damaging, ranged touch spell that has an uncommon resistance available to it: (Melf's) Acid Arrow.

2d4 Acid damage + 2d4/3 caster levels (over time). At 3rd level it's 4d4 (Average 10 damage) compared to Rainbow's Avg. 6.5, 6th level 15 damage vs. 13 damage, 9th level 20 damage vs. 19.5, 12th level 25 damage vs. 26.

It seem fairly comparable to Rainbow Ray starting CL 6th, with Rainbow ray having the great advantage of the damage occuring instantaneously, and the slight disadvantage of maybe doing fire damage balanced by the slight advantage of dazzle. A sucky to have early on, but it picks up slack pretty quickly. Rainbow Ray also has the advantage of having more class ;-) Scorching Ray is soo dull anyways. If you *really* feel strongly, talk to your DM, maybe see if you can add your int bonus or some such to the damage (ala Warmage).

 

[Werebat]

Yeah, once it maxes out, it isn't bad at all. Without any other fancy tricks, a Split Ray modification on it yields 10d12 damage, no save, as a 4th level spell -- and that ain't bad.

It's just having to wait until 15th level for it to kick in that sucks a bit. In the normal course of things it might seem to be a good spell to take at high level and then modify with metamagic -- which makes it a good candidate for Arcane Thesis I guess.

Trouble is, taking it as a Domain Spell (it's the obvious choice for my theme) saddles me with it at the lower levels when it more or less sucks. Now I could throw a Shaped Color Spray in my 2nd level slot instead while I'm at low levels (and shaped color spray is pretty darn cool), but then I need ANOTHER feat to pull that off, and I'm not made of feats (besides, the lesser rod of spell shape is so cheap I'd feel silly burning a feat on it).

Oh, well. I may just have to eat it. As I said, my build adds about 3.5 levels to my CL when casting Rainbow Ray anyway, which does help. Only have to wait until level 11.5... :\

I was hoping it would be a more impressive early-on sub for the horrible 4th level Rainbow Pattern, which is such a sucktacular spell that it boggles the mind. The target snaps out of fascination if they feel "threatened", which could be by, say, a stranger in their lair... Useless. Nice if you want to entertain at the county fair, or if you're alone and invisible and happen upon some frost giants lounging near a cliff or a pool of lava, but otherwise -- useless.

- Ron ^*^

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Personally if you really want to make Roy G. Biv, Wildmage, then make him what he's supposed to be. Don't worry about the missing damage (if any) from Scorching Ray.

 

[Werebat]

Personally if you really want to make Roy G. Biv, Wildmage, then make him what he's supposed to be. Don't worry about the missing damage (if any) from Scorching Ray.

I like to take a theme and then optimize it. I don't mind losing out a bit in the power department, but half the damage of the standard blasting ray spell of its level makes Rainbow Beam more of an "owie" than I feel comfortable with -- especially since it was supposed to be useful as a cover for the abysmal Rainbow Pattern spell by metamagicking it to 4th level.

Again, once the spells both top out, I think they are balanced. But at the "half damage" levels -- and that's most of them before they top out -- I think the cost is a bit much for what you get, unless you spend several feats optimizing. And that may not be what I really want to do.

(A question to the participants in this thread -- if you consider the spells balanced at level 7, when Scorching Ray does 8d6 damage and Rainbow Beam does 2d12 damage (half of what Scorching Ray does), do you consider them to be UNbalanced at level 15, when Scorching Ray does 12d6 and Rainbow beam does 5d12 (considerably more than half of what Scorching Ray does)? If not, why not?)

As it is I'm considering dropping Wildmage to take Loremaster for the extra feat, just because making Rainbow Beam competetive with the standard is so feat-intensive -- or I could drop gnome and go with human, but eh. I want to play a gnome.

- Ron ^*^

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Since I don't have all of the spells in front of me, perhaps you could tell us if all of the spells are in the same school.

If so, you should probably take Focused Specialist.

You might also check out feats like Residual Magic and Metamagic Focus (?) from Comp Champ (?). The first is a tactical feat that lets you apply a metamagic effect to a spell for free if it follows the same spell with that effect on it. IOW, if you have a Maximized Rainbow Ray, you could cast the same spell the next round as Maximized without having the level adjustment.

The second lets you reduce the metamagical cost for a certain number of spells within your specialist school.

 

[Werebat]

Since I don't have all of the spells in front of me, perhaps you could tell us if all of the spells are in the same school.

If so, you should probably take Focused Specialist.

You might also check out feats like Residual Magic and Metamagic Focus (?) from Comp Champ (?). The first is a tactical feat that lets you apply a metamagic effect to a spell for free if it follows the same spell with that effect on it. IOW, if you have a Maximized Rainbow Ray, you could cast the same spell the next round as Maximized without having the level adjustment.

The second lets you reduce the metamagical cost for a certain number of spells within your specialist school.

I'm making a domain wizard (from Unearthed Arcana), so she isn't technically a specialist and probably can't use much of what you are talking about. Residual Magic sounds intriguing though.

- Ron ^*^

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I believe that most of the feats that require being a specialist also allow having Spell Focus with that school as being sufficient.