Ranger: Ranged AND TWF

[Nifft]

Part of this was the discussion of a 20th level ranger versus a 20th level druid. How does the ranger win?

The Druid is the strongest class in the game. No-one wins against a Druid.

Buffing the Ranger until he competes with the Druid is not a good strategy IMHO. Nerfing the Druid might be. Shapeshift variant (from PHB-II) does a decent job of nerfing Wildshape while making it also more useful per unit of prep work.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Brother MacLaren]

The Druid is the strongest class in the game. No-one wins against a Druid.

As it is almost certainly my 20th-level druid that MarauderX is gunning for... I'd say that he could easily be driven off if he were caught unawares. A well-prepared enemy could even KO him and capture him. On his home turf, I don't imagine that a Ran20 could beat him by any other than the most contrived means. I agree that it's a powerful class -- even with no teleport magic, several other spells nerfed, about 1/4 standard wealth, and voluntary abstention from Shapechange.

Jerrin has a very poor AC, as most druids do, so a ranger with Readied Manyshot could keep him from casting any spells. He'd likely flee if he appears to be in a bad situation, such as if he is hit for significant damage by a foe he can't see. He'd wildshape into an earth elemental and use earth glide. Can the ranger drop him in one round?

Jerrin is immune to poison and has enough HP to withstand an ordinary volley of arrows. However, a Hasted Rapid Shot volley of 6 arrows, each of them +1 Flaming Shock Unholy Halfling-Bane from a +4 Str bow (so 1d8+6d6+7, avg. 32.5 each) would drop him if they all hit.

 

[MarauderX]

Hey! What are you doing to my druid?
*grumble*

Heheh... not 'gunning' for Jerrin really, just looking to keep pace with Istivan (average damage is ~50 at 15th level) with a Ranger and keep the class flexibly competitive from 1st through 20th level. I happened to toss the idea of Ranger vs. Druid around and got back the feedback that a Ranger would need to bring friends.

For a druid encounter my initial thought was using Hide In Plain Sight to the best of his abilities. Sure a ranger could be spotted through other means, but buffing just to find him and realize he's moved Without a Trace could mean guerilla-style trouble... but it's not exciting in-game, only frustrating.

By comparison a Fighter build can be a much more powerful than a Ranger at both melee AND ranged, but the Ranger offsets this with better skills, an animal companion, and a selection of spells, although meager. The reason I'm looking at both Ranged AND Melee is to make the Ranger more competitive at each and not get screwed when forced to deal with the style he didn't choose. It allows characters to not choose between which style at low levels, and can still offer a flexible package to keep leveling in the upper levels.

I do like Sammy's idea of trading out spells for access to both combat styles. A Ranger min/maxer might like the idea for a swashbuckling Dex fighter that doesn't need to worry about that pesky Wis score. Nifft's approach of tossing the animal companion is also a decent choice. Both would have to be made early on before the companion or spells were available, so perhaps Spells OR Companion becomes the choice instead of Melee or Ranged.

 

[MarauderX]

As it is almost certainly my 20th-level druid that MarauderX is gunning for... I'd say that he could easily be driven off if he were caught unawares. A well-prepared enemy could even KO him and capture him. On his home turf, I don't imagine that a Ran20 could beat him by any other than the most contrived means. I agree that it's a powerful class -- even with no teleport magic, several other spells nerfed, about 1/4 standard wealth, and voluntary abstention from Shapechange.

Well I don't really have it in for Jerrin. Perhaps a flying, invisible kobold with a silence could mess up spell casting while a squad of giants start dishing out some hurt... all taking place underground. Or a mind flayer could get the drop on him...

Anyway, Jerrin's not in any danger just yet.

 

[Nifft]

With the addition of the Swift and Immediate spells from Spell Compendium, Ranger spellcasting becomes useful as a combat enhancer. I'd take a look there before dumping spells altogether.

Cheers, -- N

 

[MongooseFamiliar]

I like the Ranger variant from Complete Champion where you give up casting to get bonus feats. I also took the variant where you lose wild empathy and gain speak with plants/animals 3/day. Way less MAD than a regular Ranger, went with a Swift Hunter ranged (Greater Manyshot) build and am loving it.

 

[GlassJaw]

You can check out my Ranger/Scout merged variant. Give the ranger more options was definitely one of my goals:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=213158

 

[scruffygrognard]

That's basically what I'm proposing.

Rangers end up on the short end with less armor, HP, and feats as compared to a fighter. Sure they get some skill points in related areas, but the total package isn't worth going all ranger. But the ranger class can't ignore Str or Dex outright like a fighter can. And in 11+ levels animal companions end up being chewed up faster than a summoned badger.
Sure rogues would love a 2-level dip into ranger, but that takes out a 1d6 sneak attack and other feat-like abilities rogues get as they level.

Part of this was the discussion of a 20th level ranger versus a 20th level druid. How does the ranger win?

I don't think they are underpowered...

If you find them to be underpowered and/or find players dipping into the class just for low-level class abilities, you could just given them a d10 hit die type.

 

[MarauderX]

If you find them to be underpowered and/or find players dipping into the class just for low-level class abilities, you could just given them a d10 hit die type.

Well, that makes low-level dipping that much more appealing. I don't mind the low-level dipping, but usually there is reason for that and not staying with the class for 20 levels.

FYI, Spell Compendium is out, thanks for the suggestion.

I'm also looking for less complication. I don't want to mess with rules & overrides like a rabid, possessed, fiendish, ferret-like critter with a penchant for messing with rules just to twist players' minds in knots, aka RBDMs.