D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

So:

As a GM, you're (generic you're) going to act certain ways.

But also, you don't want to see those ways written down.

This makes no sense.

OK, look at the GM role, principles, agenda, etc., from Dungeon World.



Just about every single thing here is something that's done in standard D&D, with the possible exceptions of "Ask questions and use the answers" and "Be a fan of the characters." And only a couple of these "push the narrative," and none of them do so in a way that's not used in typical D&D.

So why is it that actually listing these things in a way that is useful, not just to new players but to veterans, is unwelcome?

I don't run my game the same way that Jon does, or Susan or Kim. Yet we're all having fun and I enjoy Jon and Susan's games and am happy to play with them. Kim? Other people had a lot of fun but I'm just too busy to play in their game so I bowed out. For that matter I use different techniques for each group I run for once I know what kind of style they enjoy. Meanwhile the DMG does offer advice and options (and the 2024 DMG does a much better job) but it doesn't force a specific style of play. Some of the principles and moves make sense for a game I want to play, others don't. I could go into line by line details, but other people already have by now.

For example from the free rules "The rules help shape the conversation of play. While the GM and the players are talking, the rules and the fiction are talking, too. Every rule has an explicit fictional trigger that tells you when it is meant to come into the conversation." I don't want the rules having a fictional trigger. I want rules that tell me how to resolve things I don't know how to. I need rules for combat. It's nice to have rules for things like social interaction if I'm unsure how an NPC will react. Other than that I want the rules to get out of the way. The DW rules? They dictate how to play not just support the game I want to run, it comes off as very much "Thou shalt follow the rules." I want a toolbox not an instruction manual.

Just one example from Think dangerous ... "Everything in the world is a target ... Nothing you create is ever protected. Whenever your eye falls on something you’ve created, think how it can be put in danger, fall apart or crumble. The world changes. Without the characters’ intervention, it changes for the worse."

I'm just ... nope. The world exists outside of the characters. Sometimes they can make the world a better place, sometimes they choose a different direction and ignore something I've created. At that point I think of the most logical path, perhaps roll some dice if I'm uncertain. But if everything I built crumbled because the characters didn't intervene there wouldn't be much of a world left. I could go on but the rules are just full of things I don't want to do.

That and of course I simply dislike the whole narrative approach so it doesn't exactly feel like a "best practice" for me. It was what the author considered best practice. Thing is I don't want to play their game I want to run mine and play in Jon's or Susan's.
 

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Gotta say, this thread is going to make for an incredible resource for an academic paper on the fragility of the Gamer Personality(tm) where people absolutely freak out at the mere possibility that someone may tell them what to do. If you (generic you) don't want a roleplaying game rulebook to tell you what to do, why are you using it? You can just do freeform roleplay whether by text or voice, it's fun and will probably satisfy you more.
 

Ok, on the first list, I do all 4 things, but it is far from exhaustive. I make rulings, negotiate player disputes, suggests new auxilary game systems, portray unpreped npcs without making any move to mention a few things.
OK? It's not meant to be exhaustive or exclusive.

The only agenda I have is typically to find out what happens. I am not putting any particular effort into portraying a fantastic world or filling the character's life with adventure. However I do have a related agenda of setting up situations where I am genuinely curious what the party might do. This is closely related to play to find out, but distinct from the other two.
I would hope that when you describe your world, you at least try to make the descriptions a bit interesting and engaging. Unless your goal is to be as bland as possible.

Next section is the worst.
  • I rarely draw maps. If maps it typically is third party adventures, and then I want no blanks, thank you.
They mean world maps, not encounter maps. As in, you don't need to fill in every square inch of your world ahead of time. It's OK if your world is "starting village, forest over there, dungeon over there."

  • I am adressing the players and characters as needed. Some times players has needs that need adressing. Safety concerns are the big obvious one.
Addressing the characters means staying in character and using their names. "Rime, you managed to nimbly leap out of the way of the dragon's breath; what do you do now?" versus "Faolyn, you didn't take any damage because of Evasion; you're next in the initiative order."

  • I am actually more into down to earth play. The 3rd level D&D party fighting over the fate of an evil aligned +1 dagger due to it being the only magical weapon in their posession is one of my fondest memories.
Fair enough. I don't know how highly-magical a world DW expects and I tend to prefer lower levels of magic as well.

  • I am rarely building on top of existing situations beyond playing out combats. Beyond finding information, the situation will generally simplify as it is beingnplayed out.
If this is in response to "make a move that follows" you do this. Player does X, the NPC or world event does Y in response. Like, the PC threatens so the NPC attacks or backs down, or the PC asks for information and hands over a gold piece so the NPC gives the info or is insulted by the bribe. Or the PC steps on the wrong floor tile and triggers a trap, or the PCs are in a room where there's a lava flow so each turn they take fire damage.

  • Then finally one I almost do, except when the monster attacks or uses a special ability or a spell...
  • Nope. Never giving life to generic zombie nr.13.
If you follow the link, the move is described thusly: "Monsters are fantastic creatures with their own motivations (simple or complex). Give each monster details that bring it to life: smells, sights, sounds. Give each one enough to make it real, but don’t cry when it gets beat up or overthrown. That’s what player characters do!"

In other words, if your PCs encounter zombies, then don't just say "you see three zombies." Instead, spend a few seconds to talk about the stench of their rotting bodies as they lurch across the floor. Talk about the buzzing of the flies that are attracted to their shambling corpses. Things like that.

  • Nope. Absolutely hate coming up with names. If I bother to call the barkeep or the hooded stranger or the guide anything but just that, you know they are important (or come from a prewritten adventure, but even then I typically don't want to try to remember their names. I am bad with names, ok)
There are, fortunately, about eleventy gazillion random fantasy name generators online. I counted. :) But anyway, the text specifies NPCs with speaking rolls.

  • Asking questions? Sure. What do you do? Tell me and I'll use that to figure out what happens next.
It's exactly this.

  • Not having fanboy tendencies. Some PCs are great. Some go on my nerves. I try to treat both fairly, ok?
This isn't fanboying. This is giving the PCs a chance to do cool things. If they do something cool, let them know that was awesome. if the rolls are bad and they get seriously injured, their only weapon breaks, they die, it's OK to say "yeah, that sucks, I'm sorry." But you're not making it easy for them and you're not taking it back.

  • I hate destruction. Things could be threatened, but good should prevail. The real world have enough suffering. The things the players hold dearest is safe. There is tension, but carefully controled.
If you're at "think dangerous" here's the actual quote: "Everything in the world is a target. You’re thinking like an evil overlord: no single life is worth anything and there is nothing sacrosanct. Everything can be put in danger, everything can be destroyed. Nothing you create is ever protected. Whenever your eye falls on something you’ve created, think how it can be put in danger, fall apart or crumble. The world changes. Without the characters’ intervention, it changes for the worse."

If you want good to always prevail, then it will--and the PCs are that force of goodness. If you want a game where life is usually good, except for the occasional rise of evil things that the PCs put down, that's also OK. Just leave spaces for the PCs to be heroes.

  • If I hand out a point of inspiration for a player having made the entire group laught for 1 minute straight, that is fully a practice I embrace.
What this means is that if the PCs do something, then what happens as a result of that should make sense in the fiction of the world.

  • Well, I guess I some times track monsters that is not currently seen...
This is mostly for your BBEGs. Unless all your BBEGs have already accomplished all their goals and the PCs are just cleaning up up after them.

The moves section doesn't really cover what I do in situation DW indicates I should do a move. For instance passing turn back to them I guess would be my most common move (nothing happens), and that is not listed.
Because nothing happens isn't acceptable. When the player fails a roll (6 or less) or looks to the GM, the GM makes a move, either soft or hard.

A soft move is "this is a thing that happens" while a hard move is "this is a thing that is happening to you right now."

There are also some moves listed I would generaly not do, like seperate them. Puting character on the spot or actively highlighting a downside or provide a tailored oportunity also all go against the group focused mindset I prefer while running the game.
Putting the character on the spot means giving them a tough choice to make.

Highlighting a downside means things like, a PC has a criminal background and there are a lot of guards around who might recognize him. Or the PC cleric's church may not be too happy if the cleric hasn't been donating enough money to them.

Providing a tailored opportunity means things like, there's a rogue in the party, so sometimes the party will encounter locks to be picked. Or, there's a wizard in the party, so maybe they'll encounter a wizard NPC who can teach the PC a new spell.

So to present this as simply general wisdom condensed into written form seem to not really grasp the width of the medium.
Look, you misunderstood what most of these actually mean, so even though I linked to the site where the list was explained, you don't seem to have actually read it fully.

Which is what I've been saying all along. You do a lot of these things. I'm sure that you have NPCs interact with PCs, that you describe monsters at least a bit, that you at least occasionally use the PCs' backgrounds, even if those backgrounds are only inferred from their race/class/whatever else combo. I first read about "addressing the characters, not the players" in reading Ravenloft material, so I know it's part of D&D.

But you looked at the list, drew some very incorrect conclusions about what it meant, and decided it wasn't useful.
 

This I completely agree with.

If you are running across gravel and you have accepted the risk of falling, falling is still falling if you slip, and is still a negative.

If you are walking across a desert known to have spots of quicksand and you accept that risk, you are still sinking in quicksand if you found yourself in it. And it's still a negative.

Things don't change from what they are just because you accept the risks*. The only real difference is that you only have yourself to blame if those risks come to pass.

Or certainties, as is the case with social skills working on PCs.

But do you see my point, Max? Or do you just want to keep trying to be technically right?
 

I don't run my game the same way that Jon does, or Susan or Kim. Yet we're all having fun and I enjoy Jon and Susan's games and am happy to play with them. Kim? Other people had a lot of fun but I'm just too busy to play in their game so I bowed out. For that matter I use different techniques for each group I run for once I know what kind of style they enjoy. Meanwhile the DMG does offer advice and options (and the 2024 DMG does a much better job) but it doesn't force a specific style of play. Some of the principles and moves make sense for a game I want to play, others don't. I could go into line by line details, but other people already have by now.

For example from the free rules "The rules help shape the conversation of play. While the GM and the players are talking, the rules and the fiction are talking, too. Every rule has an explicit fictional trigger that tells you when it is meant to come into the conversation." I don't want the rules having a fictional trigger. I want rules that tell me how to resolve things I don't know how to. I need rules for combat.
Um, combat has an explicit fictional trigger in D&D. That trigger is some in-game event that causes the PC or NPC to want to attack, followed by that PC or NPC saying "I attack."

In fact, tons of stuff in D&D has an explicit fictional trigger. If the party encounters a locked door and the rogue says "I pick the lock," that triggers you to use the rules for lockpicking. If the PC threatens a prisoner for information, that triggers you to use the rules for intimidating people.

A move is similar in many ways. For instance, here's one from Root (Ranger playbook): Threatening Visage: When you persuade an NPC with open threats or naked steel, roll with Might instead of Charm.

I have no problem houseruling it in D&D (well, Level Up) so that if it makes sense for your character, you can use Strength instead of Charisma with Intimidation. The only real difference between this and my house rule is that this has a prerequisite. You can't intimidate someone by making insinuations--you have to outright promise violence. And you have to take the move, of course.

Just one example from Think dangerous ... "Everything in the world is a target ... Nothing you create is ever protected. Whenever your eye falls on something you’ve created, think how it can be put in danger, fall apart or crumble. The world changes. Without the characters’ intervention, it changes for the worse."

I'm just ... nope. The world exists outside of the characters. Sometimes they can make the world a better place, sometimes they choose a different direction and ignore something I've created. At that point I think of the most logical path, perhaps roll some dice if I'm uncertain. But if everything I built crumbled because the characters didn't intervene there wouldn't be much of a world left. I could go on but the rules are just full of things I don't want to do.
Tell me, how do your adventures go? Are there ever bad guys doing bad guy things? If the PCs do nothing, do these bad guy things take effect, or do they always fizzle away harmlessly and meaninglessly?

If you have bad guys who do bad guy things, and those things actually cause harm if they're not stopped, then you are doing exactly what Think Dangerous says to do.
 

My experience is entirely the opposite. "Asking can I do X" happens all the time in combat.

I remember when I was running a game for entirely new players/friends in the middle of the 2020 “everybody’s online” period they kept asking if they could do things like disarm people, capture them, generally stunt / do genre appropriate actions.

Even later, “can I see/move to/blah blah” was pretty common.
 

I have no problem houseruling it in D&D (well, Level Up) so that if it makes sense for your character, you can use Strength instead of Charisma with Intimidation. The only real difference between this and my house rule is that this has a prerequisite
FWIW, this is an optional rule 2014 5e and I’m assuming 2024 as well under “alternate ability scores” or whatever.
 

But do you see my point, Max? Or do you just want to keep trying to be technically right?
Your point was my point when you disagreed with me several posts ago! :P


 

How can D&D be both a simulationist game and worship at the altar of the hp god?
The game was created with hit points and never moved past that point. That doesn't conflict with the fact that many simulationists prefer to remove/reject neo-gamist techniques or add-ons.
For example many dislike Inspiration.

And I'm sure you'd agree it is much easier to reject/remove gamist techniques and add-ons than remove the Hit Point system from D&D.
 

Maybe he likes his playstyle. Is it necessary to push your desire to "retrain" gamers who play differently than you on them?
He's joining our table, our ways.
If I were joining another table I'd acclimatize to their style of play. We have a reward system in play and decisions like the one he made would exclude him from such reward system.

In any event I asked when he picks his character's TIBFs he considers how easy it was for the character to abandon his home, the demon threat and his personal quest to follow strangers essentially.

EDIT: And he has responded quite favourably and one of his comments were "I like him to make sense thematically" which is great.
 
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