D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

In my recent game...
Underdark bugbear ranger decides to abandon the Underdark, the only home he has known, to the demon threat (OotA), abandon his personal quest of vengeance vs an Illithid that he had been a thrall for many years, to join a surface party he had known for a day to deal with their issues.
Now I can make it work in the fiction, but there was NO attempt made by this player. The idea never crossed his mind. This dude is an old player who has just joined our table after many years. He is in need of desperate retraining IMO.
I think this sort of pawn stance with a splash of colour thrown over it is very common. And is what a typical D&D module/AP encourages.

Because as soon as the player tries to introduce anything more substantive, they will start bumping into the limits of the module/AP.

The "social contract" stuff in the current version of the game also encourages it:

You must provide reasonably appealing reasons for characters to undertake the adventures you prepare. In exchange, the players should go along with those hooks. It’s OK for your players to give you some pushback on why their characters should want to do what you’re asking them to do, but it’s not OK for them to invalidate the hard work you’ve done preparing the adventure by willfully going in a different direction.

If you feel like you’re keeping up your end of the bargain but your players aren’t, have a conversation with them away from the gaming table. Try to understand what hooks would motivate their characters, and make sure the players understand the work you put into preparing adventures for them.​

If the work that the GM has done is preparing an adventure/module/AP, then this social contract is a clear recipe for pawn stance, or pretty thin/"mere colour" author stance. It doesn't encourage genuine inhabitation of the character at all.

This is not a criticism: I've done, and GMed, my fair share of pawn stance D&D. But for a RPGer who is looking for a bit more or a bit diffrent, then as you said, some "retraining" may be necessary.
 

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Ok. For my part, I feel those sorts of choices should only come up when player decision and setting logic dictate, as opposed to constantly at every turn.
Well, "setting logic" of course depends on how the setting is written. For instance, the setting logic of Middle Earth or Dragonlance or default 4e D&D generates rising conflict across a moral line. The setting logic of REH's Hyborean Age doesn't.

EDIT: Also, this:
Well if a hypothetical you were interested in that type of stuff happening then you could create characters and setting that made it far more likely to happen. Then you could also use a system that operated on a granularity where those decisions weren't undercut by tactical choices, or put another way, renders player tactical skill irrelevant.

Then that's a kind of base line Narrativism, or one variant anyway.
 


this sole last paragraph provides degrees more illumination on how things work than that entire liveplay snippet besides the few things i could pick out about there being convince conflicts? in which relate to ranks of precedence that determine who can usually order who around and something about a manipulator vs manipulator check.

while i'm grateful you tried to respond to my question it answers very little about how things actually mechanically get resolved in how who wins and what the consequence rules are/work.
The players had to compromise in the Convince conflict. So that meant they were committed to getting the river pirates to tithe to Lareth. They discharged that obligation a few sessions later.
 

I don't agree with that assessment. You are correct if you're looking at the modules spelling out, "This is a moral conflict." In my experience, though, players quite often come up with moral conflicts in modules.

"Do we let the prisoners go, tie them up and if they eventually escape they live, kill them, try to talk them into being friendly..." Do we break into the lords manor, try to get invited in somehow, wait for the lord to leave and talk to him somewhere else..."

Lots of moral conflicts come about when running D&D modules from all eras.
I'm not seeing the rising conflict across a moral line.
 

He's joining our table, our ways.
If I were joining another table I'd acclimatize to their style of play. We have a reward system in play and decisions like the one he made would exclude him from such reward system.

In any event I asked when he picks his character's TIBFs he considers how easy it was for the character to abandon his home, the demon threat and his personal quest to follow strangers essentially.

EDIT: And he has responded quite favourably and one of his comments were "I like him to make sense thematically" which is great.
Yep. I don't think a fully narrative game is for me, but I'm absolutely willing to try one out. If I do, I'm not going to try and play like I would D&D. I'd play it as it's intended to be played. That way I can actually experience what it's like, and I'm not being a disruption to the other people at the table.
 

I'm not seeing the rising conflict across a moral line.
Wait. So it's a moral conflict to go into a territory that you have a treaty not to enter or else not, but you don't see moral conflict between murdering someone and letting him go at risk to yourself? Or between committing a crime to access the lord and risking failure by trying legal means?

That's a weird moral line.
 

Um, combat has an explicit fictional trigger in D&D. That trigger is some in-game event that causes the PC or NPC to want to attack, followed by that PC or NPC saying "I attack."

In fact, tons of stuff in D&D has an explicit fictional trigger. If the party encounters a locked door and the rogue says "I pick the lock," that triggers you to use the rules for lockpicking. If the PC threatens a prisoner for information, that triggers you to use the rules for intimidating people.

A move is similar in many ways. For instance, here's one from Root (Ranger playbook): Threatening Visage: When you persuade an NPC with open threats or naked steel, roll with Might instead of Charm.

I have no problem houseruling it in D&D (well, Level Up) so that if it makes sense for your character, you can use Strength instead of Charisma with Intimidation. The only real difference between this and my house rule is that this has a prerequisite. You can't intimidate someone by making insinuations--you have to outright promise violence. And you have to take the move, of course.


Tell me, how do your adventures go? Are there ever bad guys doing bad guy things? If the PCs do nothing, do these bad guy things take effect, or do they always fizzle away harmlessly and meaninglessly?

If you have bad guys who do bad guy things, and those things actually cause harm if they're not stopped, then you are doing exactly what Think Dangerous says to do.

You asked me why I wouldn't want to play DW. Its been a while since I glanced through the rules (I even hunted down some actual play streams), so I looked through some yet again.

Its just not the game for me. I could add a couple more paragraphs and started typing them but it doesn't matter. It's not the game for me and much like I will never have an NPC use persuasion on a PC, you aren't going to convert me to the holy word of PbtA games.

I understand how it works well enough to know it doesn't appeal and explained why. There's nothing more to say.
 

Dragonlance has been a setting for several versions of D&D, all of which have death rules. Unless you're talking about the original module run, which is so railroady that to me it barely counts as a game, more like a Choose Your Own Adventure book (one where none of the choices lead to a bad end). The actual setting has no less potential for death than any other D&D game.
Yes, I was in fact talking about that. I really did refer to the modules in specific:
Consider Dragonlance stuff. Very much D&D--but the modules explicitly had rules against deaths for named characters prior to certain events happening. Hence death cannot be a necessity of any kind, structural or otherwise.
----
I think you're using a considerable amount of hyperbole in your rhetoric (a tactic I'm personally not fond of, but I digress). GMs and players in traditional games have different roles with different degrees of power over the game. A GM has less motivation to act in bad faith I think, because under the rules they can pretty much do what they want anyway.
"I can do whatever I want" has never, in my experience, been a reducing effect on whether people act in untoward ways. It is almost always going to increase people doing that. Thinking one has license to do whatever one wants, whenever one wants, is the fastest way to get people acting in crappy ways.

I refer you to, for example, the Greater Internet F@#$wad Theory from Penny Arcade. Anonymity on the internet means people think they can do whatever they want without meaningful hindrance or consequences. Hence, even perfectly ordinary people--people who might be quite respectful and constructive in personal social situations--quite easily become the worst people you know under such conditions. Or consider how people will use self-serving justifications to absolve themselves of their less-than-moral behavior, e.g. as Psychology Today notes, recasting their behavior as a "grey area" or asserting that behavior as actually beneficial to others in some way. Or, from that same article, their reference to studies which have shown that people who get paid a monetary reward equal to the value of a die they throw, will self-report higher values if allowed to roll the die three times but asked to report only the first result, rather than asked to roll the die only once and report the result.

"You can do pretty much whatever you want and avoid the players finding out" IS something that increases the likelihood of misbehavior. This is as close to scientific fact as one can get without literally doing an actual peer-reviewed study on it.

They don't gain anything in play by acting in bad faith (not to say some GMs might behave badly regardless, of course).
Don't they? They gain control. They gain assurance that their "vision" remains unsullied--that's something folks on here love to bring up, that the GM's vision is incredibly important and should be preserved even if that means resorting to certain questionable tactics. Further, they "gain" by removing negatives. If you just successfully deceive your players into thinking they're in a wide-open sandbox when they're actually riding invisible rails, you need to do a TON less work and--if the deception is indefinitely flawless--exactly as happy of players as if you had actually given them the experience they're seeking.

So...yeah. There's quite a bit GMs can get from it, both in gaining beneficial things and in reducing undesirable things.

A player, on the other hand, defines and expands their role in the setting solely through the actions and abilities of their PC (in games I play anyway). They have motivation to try to increase that role by whatever means they can get away with. This doesn't mean they're going to act in bad faith, but often they have reason to do so, for in-game advantage, so it is IMO understandable.
Yeah I just don't buy this. I don't buy that GMs get nothing while players get everything. Both sides have reasons to do it. Both gain.
 

A few things.

1) The way you described it, it was plot armor until a certain situation comes to pass, then the named characters can die. That's not zero death rules. That's limited death rules.

2) You are talking about the modules, which aren't any version of D&D. They're modules. The version of D&D with the original modules was I believe 1e, but even if it were 2e, that version of D&D did in fact have death rules. Also, the Dragonlance setting had death rules in it, even if those modules were limited.
Did you read my original post?

Because it looks like you didn't read my original post. Where I specifically and explicitly said both things.
Oooh boy. Gonna have to completely reject that penultimate sentence of this bit. Death is not a structural necessity. There are plenty of games, including some versions of D&D, that do not have character death. Consider Dragonlance stuff. Very much D&D--but the modules explicitly had rules against deaths for named characters prior to certain events happening. Hence death cannot be a necessity of any kind, structural or otherwise.
It's really irritating to get multiple "well AKSHULLY" responses when I already said every one of those "well AKSHULLY" things.
 

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