D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[FrogReaver]

All I can think about this is, in a game in which a risk of death is a real and possible outcome, shouldn't this be such a situation in which such an outcome is possible?

I mean yes it's arguable, but if simulating that was my goal I definitely wouldn't start from here.

It seems apparent to me this is just reframing the whole, ‘if it’s simulation it must be perfect argument’ into different words.

 

[Eric V]

Not taking damage == knowing how to take a hit or avoid significant damage, being able to read your attacker and anticipate the attack, a heavy dose of luck along with other techniques to turn a killing blow into a minor graze. HP are a lot of ideas thrown into one abstract bucket.

Nobody says it's a perfect solution, just that it's a tired old example of "I don't like it so it can't be a simulation".

If it's an abstraction, it's not a simulation.

And hey, I never said I didn't like it, so you can turn that particular faucet right off; all the RPGs I play use a similar system, and I quite like them.

I do, however, recognize them for what they are...as you did: an abstraction of a concept, not a simulation of one.

 

[Micah Sweet]

How many times have we seen TV or movies show someone with a gun to their head that then spins around, distracts or somehow otherwise avoids getting killed? The game simply abstracts that scene out.

Sure, but I like possibility existing of it going the other way.

 

[AnotherGuy]

How many times have we seen TV or movies show someone with a gun to their head that then spins around, distracts or somehow otherwise avoids getting killed? The game simply abstracts that scene out.

We have also seen scenes where the hero also abides by the villain's orders.
We have also seen John Wick survive falling from unbelievable heights, where some of us inwardly groan.
It really depends what kind of fiction you're looking to emulate at the table.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's a very common trope that some people are virtually immune to damage from low level antagonists. Sometimes the person that can't do any significant damage is the protagonist of the story who knows that they need to go through a training montage in order to win the day. We see it in everything from Rocky to innumerable action hero movies and TV shows.

D&D isn't emulating reality, it's emulating story and myth.

I actually feel it is or can potentially emulate any or all of these.

 

[Pedantic]

We have also seen scenes where the hero also abides by the villain's orders.
We have also seen John Wick survive falling from unbelievable heights, where some of us inwardly groan.
It really depends what kind of fiction you're looking to emulate at the table.

John Wick really is a perfect example of how high hit points function without the vague luck/skill explanation. You just get hit a lot and don't die.

 

[AlViking]

If it's an abstraction, it's not a simulation.

And hey, I never said I didn't like it, so you can turn that particular faucet right off; all the RPGs I play use a similar system, and I quite like them.

I do, however, recognize them for what they are...as you did: an abstraction of a concept, not a simulation of one.

Virtually all simulation uses abstractions whether we're talking about games or simulating business models. How do you think simulations work?

 

[TwoSix]

I've always posited this as either a system or setting failure, and never been particularly sympathetic to claims this situation can somehow live outside the rules. You can only whine about fighters jumping off cliffs if you're proposing a change; otherwise you should be preparing for cliff jumping strategies.

I agree with this. This is probably true for all agendas, but particularly for sim play, you want your system truths and your setting truths to align.

If your setting truth is that a readied crossbow can one-shot kill even a high-level character, than you need resolution rules that make that true in the system.

If your system truth is that a high-level character is under no particular threat from a readied crossbow, then you need to make it a setting truth that both players and characters would be aware of that truth.

Depending on the players to make wobbly decisions to try and uphold two contradictory truths (the setting and the system) is just asking for unfun play.

 

[TwoSix]

John Wick really is a perfect example of how high hit points function without the vague luck/skill explanation. You just get hit a lot and don't die.

Absolutely. I've been saying for a few years now than John Wick is the perfect encapsulation of what a high-level fighter is trying to be.

 

[Don Durito]

It seems apparent to me this is just reframing the whole, ‘if it’s simulation it must be perfect argument’ into different words.

What an odd misconception.