D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

So, because the DM is free to narrate anything he or she pleases to justify any result that the mechanics give you, that makes it simulationist? Seriously?
No. Because the narration has to match the mechanics, meaning if someone falls while climbing, the narration can't be pixies. It has to directly relate to the climb. A loose rock. The rope breaks or is cut by a sharp edge. The climber slips. And so on.

The exception would if pixies actually showed up for other reasons and did something to cause him to fall. In that case, though, it wasn't a failed climb check.

If the narration and mechanics match, the simulation is intact.
 

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While looking through the 5e DMG this morning, I came across the section oh shipwrecks and thought of you. Here you went and came up with super rules for ships and fighting, and 5e came up with...

"There aren't rules for determining when a shipwreck happens; it happens when you want or need it to happen."

Even I wouldn't touch that one. Talk about heavy handed and/or railroading.

On that note, if you still have those ship rules you made and are willing to share them, I'd love to take a look. I have yet to find satisfactory ship combat rules.
 

Some further hypotheses I'd like to add for @Enrahim to consider are the

'amateur-player' hypothesis, which says that fidelity to real world beyond that which satisfies normal player expectations cannot add to the experience​
'authorial-expertise' hypothesis, which says that an author of an imaginary world is de jure an expert in it (what they say is true in the fiction, just because they are the appointed person to say it)​
'resisted-dichotomy' hypothesis, which says that more than one hypothesis can be true at the same time, they're not dichotomous​
So when Arthur Conan Doyle says that a certain kind of snake that cannot climb in the real world, climbed down a bell pull to poison the victim, it's true that this snake can climb down bell pulls in the imaginary world of Holmes just because Doyle said so.
Okay, but notice what these do. I'll call them P, Q, and R respectively (to reserve A/B/C/D for things specific to Enrahim's ideas).

P means that subjective player understanding is what matters, not actual real-world fidelity. Hence, anyone who accepts it is already admitting that various forms of fidelity--"realism", verisimilitude, accuracy, historicity, physicality, etc.--are not actually what matters. The only thing that matters is a given person's feeling that the situation is appropriate; and that is precisely what I had previously presented "groundedness" to be.

Q is ultimately just "your" (I know it isn't your original argument) W/W'/F thing rephrased in this structure, so while I guess it's something to consider, it's honestly not adding too much to the conversation. The very idea that someone can reject an author's presented W' because some F in it doesn't fit their needed level of feeling grounded means rejecting this hypothesis, or at least most of its stronger forms. Or, if you prefer, someone can admit that the author is an expert, but deny that that expertise is valid and thus reject the presented fictional world because it conflicts with W.

Finally, we don't really need R at all. All that's doing is making a hypothesis out of the assertion of (possible) false dichotomy, which is unnecessary. Further, some of these hypotheses are at least logically connected, even if not dichotomous. For example, if Enrahim's "strong FK hypothesis" is false, then it cannot be the case that their "strong amateur FK hypothesis" is true, as the latter entails the former (but not vice-versa); if it is not the case that any given expert is guaranteed to produce a superior result (by whatever metric; not disputing that specifically right now) when compared to a rule-system, then it cannot be the case that any given amateur is guaranteed to produce a superior result when compared to a rule-system.

As for the last bit, that's simply one of the categories I already brought up for where disputes over groundedness may arise: differences in knowledge between different players. A herpetologist might be annoyed at this falsehood but allow it for the sake of a story, while an average person, having no knowledge of which snakes can or can't climb but knowing that snakes can climb, might h ave no issue. And a highly uninformed person who doesn't even know that snakes can climb might wrap back around to annoyance because they think it's a ridiculous fantasy to claim that a snake could climb a bell cord.

And that gets to the heart of the issue I have with how a lot of people actually do approach this, as in, behavior I have really seen both within the D&D hobby and elsewhere in media and entertainment: the rejection of things which are in fact true in our world, because this specific person lacks the knowledge or understanding to demonstrate that that is true. We already had this happen in this very thread, with picking locks. The truth is, as long as you actually do have the tools to pick the lock, and the lock is in principle pickable, then whether or not it can be picked is not in doubt. Functionally all locks are pickable if you have appropriate tools, and most of the locks that require specialized tools (such as disk detainer locks, Medeco's biaxial locks, or magnetic-pin tumbler locks) are something only invented in the past century or so--entirely "modern" inventions by D&D standards, often because the ability to produce appropriate materials, machined in the appropriate way, did not exist prior to the modern era. Instead, many, MANY people have it in their heads the idea that a given lock could be simply unpickable by some particular person, while being completely pickable by another, purely on the basis of skill at picking locks--which is a gross misunderstanding of the skill of lockpicking.

The entire model of how consequence could arise from an action was rejected, not accepted, because W' conflicted with certain posters' W, even though this W' is more like the real world than their Ws are.
 

While looking through the 5e DMG this morning, I came across the section oh shipwrecks and thought of you. Here you went and came up with super rules for ships and fighting, and 5e came up with...

"There aren't rules for determining when a shipwreck happens; it happens when you want or need it to happen."

Even I wouldn't touch that one. Talk about heavy handed and/or railroading.

On that note, if you still have those ship rules you made and are willing to share them, I'd love to take a look. I have yet to find satisfactory ship combat rules.
Is this not the necessary consequence of the GM invalidating the rules when they decide the rules need to be invalidated?

This is specifically why I oppose such things. Like this drives precisely at the heart of the matter.

Ignoring the rules whenever you think they're being an impediment is the exact description of "<the thing you want> happens when you want or need it to happen."

You break the rules whenever it is necessary to achieve a goal you think is worth achieving.
 

Is this not the necessary consequence of the GM invalidating the rules when they decide the rules need to be invalidated?
How is a lack of shipwreck rules a consequence of DMs occasionally overriding rules that exist? That doesn't make any sense.
Ignoring the rules whenever you think they're being an impediment is the exact description of "<the thing you want> happens when you want or need it to happen."
No it's not. That's completely wrong. When I override a rule, it's because the rule is a bad one for that situation and will result in nonsense. It's not at all about what I want to happen or need to happen. It's never about me or my desires, other than the desire for the game to make sense when rules are applied.
 

Is this not the necessary consequence of the GM invalidating the rules when they decide the rules need to be invalidated?

This is specifically why I oppose such things. Like this drives precisely at the heart of the matter.

Ignoring the rules whenever you think they're being an impediment is the exact description of "<the thing you want> happens when you want or need it to happen."

You break the rules whenever it is necessary to achieve a goal you think is worth achieving.
So if, on reading or applying an existing rule, you're faced with a hard choice between the following:

--- follow the rule even though the resulting in-fiction outcome will be nonsensical
--- trash and-or rewrite the rule in order to allow the in-fiction outcome to make sense

Which do you prefer - or, if you're the GM, which do you do?

Or, put another way, does sensible fiction qualify as a goal worth achieving?
 

So if, on reading or applying an existing rule, you're faced with a hard choice between the following:

--- follow the rule even though the resulting in-fiction outcome will be nonsensical
--- trash and-or rewrite the rule in order to allow the in-fiction outcome to make sense

Which do you prefer - or, if you're the GM, which do you do?

Or, put another way, does sensible fiction qualify as a goal worth achieving?
Isn't this missing the option that I though was under-discussion --- override the rule?

I mean I think there is a big difference between saying "I'm just going to override this rule" and "This rule is clearly not working - let's agree to change it now".
 

Thank you! Just to preempt some possible bad words. I think the hard FK hypothesis "is solid". I now realize that is a poor choice of words. I am too used to scientific thinking. First I want to divert attention to me acknowledging that this hypothesis is disputed. I want to emphasize I think this dispute is real, and unresolved. When I labeled the hard hypothesis as "solid", it was to a large extent as a contrast to the hard amateur hypothesis.

What do I mean by "solid" then? I am actually not sure. Introspection indicated the main reason might be that I have yet to see any compelling evidence falsifying this. However it should be added that I have not sought such evidence either, as I have never been in a position to have to take stance in this dispute.

But I am also keenly aware that the hypotesis in itself is hardly falsifiable. A central problem is that "better simulation" is hardly ever well defined. It was pretty well defined for the kriegspeil case tough, however even there setting up a good experiment for trying to falsify the hypotesis would be very hard at best.
I've touched on most of this sprinkled through the response to your final paragraph, but I wanted to say that I, too, am rather used to scientific thinking (my primary training is in physics, especially quantum physics, I only pursued a minor in philosophy). As someone pretty well steeped in that field--where statistics, probabilities (or, more commonly, "probability amplitudes"), and uncertainty are baked into its very heart, even in my preferred interpretation!--the idea that an "expert" on a scientific discipline would be consistently superior to, say, Maxwell's equations or quantum field theory is...well, the word "poppycock" comes to mind. It's just not tenable. Scientific thinking, for good and (as we have been slowly learning over the past ~80 years, give or take) occasionally for ill, is all about the idea that humans are actually rotten garbage at a number of extremely important tasks, such as statistical thinking, data collection, and the specific types of geometric reasoning required for important scientific disciplines. (I will note, though, that uman "probability instinct" exists, and it is actually pretty decent when restricted to the kinds of probabilities our ancestors evolved to need to reason about; unfortunately, those instincts are very strong and don't suddenly go away when we move outside the assumptions baked into them, and thus they are very apt to lead us astray.)

However I do find myself having a bias toward using hard FK as a working hypotesis. I think one reason is that the obvious counter claim "It is always possible to find a complex enough mechanical system that can provide a better simulation than a human expert" is not falsifiable at all. Hard FK can at least be falsified in theory by for instance by producing a mechanics that is generally accepted to provide better results than an expert. Such mechanics are routinely used in many fields. As such, the absence of any mechanics generally recognised as better than even amateurs in the field of TTRPG, is in itself not a given.
Whereas I find myself with a (pretty significant) bias against it. Secret knowledge is inherently unexplored and untested. Intuition is a useful tool in many places, but much of what goes on in any kind of arithmetic or statistical structure cannot rely on intution, because intuition is often simultaneously very wrong and impossible to check. When your rulebook is invisible, it's impossible to check it for errors, more or less, and errors creeping in through an invisible rulebook cannot be isolated for testing and refinement.

Rules-systems, by being fixed things, necessarily cannot expand beyond their current definition unless we engage in design work. That is the nature of the beast. But by being a fixed public thing, a rule-system permits criticism. An invisible rulebook not only does not permit criticism, it inherently opposes criticism. You cannot critique what you cannot see.

I would finish with giving one rationale why the hard FK hypotesis might be correct for the scope of TTRPG for all practical purposes, that I think might resonate with you. That is your exelent point related to how the subjective notion of groundedness is essential to the sense of quality of the TTRPG "simulation" (at least for many). A human referee are able to gather feedback from players regarding their subjective sense of groundednes and incorporate that in their rulings. It is hard to for me to see how to practically incorporate something similar into a traditional approach to mechanising simulation at least.
Okay, but that's a significantly different claim. That is, your "hard FK hypothesis", which I'll call "A", more or less as stated, was:

"A: Any expert can produce superior simulation results (abbreviated SRs) compared to any rule-system."

What you're now proposing, call it A`, is: "A`: Any given expert can produce sufficiently adequate SRs more often than any given rule-system."

The former is an extremely strong (as in strident) claim. Even without the criticisms invited by the squishy terms "expert" and "superior" (e.g., "what qualifies someone as an expert?" and "how is 'superior' defined?"), this is making a sweeping existential claim. That is, the equivalent contrapositive of A is: "There does not exist any system that can produce superior SRs compared to any given expert." All I need to do is provide a single counterexample: a system that can, in fact, produce superior SRs some of the time compared to even one single expert.

Your softened A` is in a slightly better position, as it makes weaker claims, but it is still not on "solid" ground as I see it. That is, its contrapositive is: "There does not exist any rule-system that can produce sufficiently adequate SRs more often than any given expert." But the reason the ground is still shaky is because, despite being a weaker claim, it has actually weakened the requirements for its disproof in lockstep, because now, I don't even need a system that is always superior, nor even always sufficiently adequate! I simply need a system that produces sufficiently adequate SRs more often than even one single expert, a bar that I should hope we agree is not at all difficult to clear.

Completely separately from that, I don't really take falsifiability arguments all that seriously. Popperian falsifiability was a noble goal, but I don't think it achieved the target it set out to achieve, especially because there are things held to be good science (such as Everett's Many-Worlds interpretation of QM or the Copehagen interpretation thereof, or the theory of evolution) that aren't falsifiable (the latter explicitly so by Popper's own admission/assertion), and because there are things that are agreed to be bad science but which make both falsifiable and actually falsified claims (e.g. astrology, which makes specific, falsifiable claims). Moreover, the above criticisms that I intentionally left aside--the definition of "expert" and "superior", and perhaps by your own arguments "simulation" as well--specifically open this hypothesis to non-falsifiability, because one can simply argue that if person X failed to produce results superior to a given rule-set, then either person X wasn't actually an expert, or "superior" was defined improperly, or person X wasn't trying to "simulate" (or was not "simulating" in the right way), and thus the claim is still true because the contradictory evidence has been excluded by sufficient tweaking of the input assumptions.

Note, however, that none of these disproofs result in the claim you seem to be thinking I am defending, which I will call the "strong designer hypothesis": "There exists at least one rules-system which always produces superior simulation results than any expert could produce."

I don't hold this hypothesis, and think it almost as bad (not quite, but almost) as the "strong FK hypothesis". As before, all this would require is finding a single expert, and as experts can adapt much faster than tested, developed rules-systems can, it is functionally guaranteed that, for any given, fixed rules-system, a singular expert could specifically train themselves for being superior to that system--meaning, the expert becomes an expert at that system, discovers every possible way that it could go wrong, and then engineers a situation where it must go wrong, so that said expert can then declare victory. Since the system can't adapt but the expert can, it is always possible that at least one expert could, at least in theory, eventually become better--simply by always applying that system except in the identified edge cases, however infrequent those may be, and then by effort and manipulation ensuring that one such edge case actually occurs.

Instead, my claim is as follows: "It is always possible to design a rules-system such that any given specific expert, without further training, would always produce equivalent SRs to that system." Speaking more broadly, given some minimum level of desired efficacy, I believe it is always possible to design a system which meets or exceeds that level. Call this the "weak designer hypothesis", if you like. If said expert subsequently goes out and refines their knowledge (perhaps, for example, by thoroughly learning said rules-system and finding as many places as possible where it goes wrong), then it is certainly possible for that expert to exceed any fixed rules-system, that seems blindingly obvious to me. But while a single rules-system can't adapt, designers can. The designer can pick that expert's brain, using their expertise as the basis for modifications to the original system--and since it must be public knowledge (that's the whole point of being a system, after all), it can be critiqued by many minds, not just the one expert's mind.

This does result in the conclusion that neither experts nor systems are inherently superior. Instead, it creates a kind of tennis match. In the case of kriegsspiel, designers lobbed the opening serve, and eventually experts lobbed back. But it's been many, many, many years since then. We have come to realize, for example, that the ideal of tactical infinity is not actually something that ever really manifests, nor anything even truly close to it. My own arguments, here and elsewhere, have demonstrated that "invisible rulebooks" can in fact be a liability just as much as an asset. That it is reductive, not to mention dismissive, to write off any rule-system solution as "merely" invoking mechanics without thought or care or creativity (a common, base canard flung out by advocates of "FKR" approaches pretty much every time the topic comes up.)
 

So if, on reading or applying an existing rule, you're faced with a hard choice between the following:

--- follow the rule even though the resulting in-fiction outcome will be nonsensical
--- trash and-or rewrite the rule in order to allow the in-fiction outcome to make sense

Which do you prefer - or, if you're the GM, which do you do?

Or, put another way, does sensible fiction qualify as a goal worth achieving?
@Don Durito has the right of it.

Your dichotomy is false, because there is a third path. That is, you have stated that the only things we can do are follow the rule no matter how stupid it might be, or secretly disregard the rule while pretending we are in fact upholding it.

The third path is to say, "Hey guys. I think this doesn't make sense, and we should do that instead. What do you think?"

Now, I'm sure there are some people out there who would be offended by being asked this question, and would in fact actually prefer that the GM deceive them into thinking the rules are being followed when they are not. I don't at all understand that line of thinking, but I'm 100% certain it exists. That it exists does not mean it must be done in every case.

Further, what you said above emphatically is not equivalent to "does sensible fiction qualify as a goal worth achieving?" It is quite possible to have sensible fiction be baked into the rules themselves. Because that's quite literally what Dungeon World does. You flatly do not use the rules UNLESS the fiction actively calls for something that requires rules, and as soon as you have used the rules, you immediately return all of your focus to the fiction. The one, and only, purpose of DW's rules is to resolve ambiguous situations in the fiction, where the results of both success and failure are interesting enough to be worth knowing.

If the situation isn't ambiguous, you don't use the rules--you already know what's happening because the fiction has already told you. I have already argued, repeatedly, that if failure produces literally nothing interesting whatsoever, such as the situation that feeds into 3e's "take 10" and 'take 20" rules, then the rules should not be invoked in the first place, and the conversation-that-is-play should remain purely focused on the fiction. Likewise, if success produces nothing interesting whatsoever, I don't see the point of invoking the mechanics either; either the attempt simply fails, or (I think more likely) the player takes an action that was unwise and now suffers the consequences thereof. (I usually try to give subtle warnings for particularly stupid choices, but otherwise, stupid is as stupid does, as they say.) It's only when both results lead somewhere interesting and meaningfully different from the current situation--where there is genuine ambiguity that the fiction alone cannot resolve--that we turn to the rules to resolve the problem. Conflict is extremely dense in such situations, and thus it gets a lot of design. I wish that more systems would try to recognize that non-combat situations can also be dense in such situations, and thus give them more than fig-leaf design, but that's an entirely separate discussion.
 

I know that, and have since fairly early grade school.
Then you are, statistically speaking, in the minority.

It is at least the plurality belief that heavier things fall faster than lighter things. Not just feathers and sheafs of paper vs bricks and boulders. I'm talking ANYTHING heavier falling faster than ANYTHING lighter, in all circumstances.

This is what I mean by "invisible rulebooks" can be flawed in ways we cannot see. It can, in fact, literally be the case that a person holds objectively false beliefs about how the world works.

My point is that for the purposes of simulating and narrating in-setting physics as observed by the characters, the bolded fact is - except in the very rarest of in-game situations - so completely irrelevant that I'm not even sure why you brought it up.
And my point is that these are not "the very rarest of in-game situations". We have already covered, just in this thread, how lockpicking is an example. I believe it was clearstream who brought up the "dragons are acceptable, but heroes falling 100 feet and surviving is not" example, because those two things are directly in conflict with one another--one depends on the square-cube law being false, the other depends on it being true. People just don't realize that they are bringing in self-contradictory beliefs

What matters is what the characters actually see and interact with that we-as-GMs have to narrate, and for that "Aristotleian physics" are more than good enough. A feather will fall slower than a brick even if the fall distance is only five feet. A 1-inch rubber cube will fall slower than a 1-inch cube of lead if the fall is long enough that the rubber can achieve terminal velocity. That's what the characters see, and thus that's what we'd narrate.
There is no situation where the 1-inch rubber cube would fall faster though. That is objectively false. This is testably true on Earth. And if it were not true, then a whole bunch of other things would cease to be true too, because physics isn't like a playing card deck where you can pick and choose specific effects you like and exclude effects you don't. It's more like a house of cards, where removing one or two might not destabilize it if you pick exceedingly carefully, but willy-nilly taking three cards and inserting two extra is almost guaranteed to make it collapse.
 

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