D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Emerikol]

That's your choice. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen and if its something that has real heft it won't turn into a discussion (and in some of those cases, I think it probably should; its one thing to make a decision that causes your players trouble because you don't know better, its another to continue with it when corrected by someone more knowledgeable than you).

Then you may be the type of player that at least for me and my group is not a good fit. This sort of behavior is adjacent to rules lawyering which is widely disparaged in my quarters.

Then I'm back to disagreeing with you in the majority of cases.

This probably fits with what I said above. We don't play the same sort of games.

The DM's decision is final in every game I've played in. The game is a lot more fun that way for a lot of us. YMMV.

 

[Emerikol]

The social contract is binding for everyone. If you have a player who "has all the power" and takes advantage of it, then you don't play with them anymore.

That is our implied social contract. We see the DM as final arbiter of his campaign. We don't argue about that right but if we hate the game and how it plays out then we seek another campaign.

The problem is when you have people that have been taught that player has the right to do that.

Well that was the official stance of the games founder and fundamental to the earlier editions of D&D.

And to both of you: It is a game amongst friends. It's not like someone is emperor of the world. They are the DM for the game.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Because the players know better than to make the game silly.

Yeah, that’s my point, it’s a social contract. It doesn’t matter what type of game you play, there is still a social contract between all participants to play in a way that everyone enjoys.

If they can't do that, then play a game where the DM can force compliance because they're the final authority.

Quite. Some players prefer a more structured game.

And for PbtA games, it's the DM and the players.

That raises the question: how do you handle disagreements, without the evenings entertainment becoming an acrimonious argument (like an unmoderated forum)?

 

[Faolyn]

Yeah, as I've noted at least part of the die roll is representing events and situations that are both out of the characters control and way too fine tuned for it to be directly represented in the situation. When you're doing a spear charge to stab the monster, and you hit a slick spot on the ground that wasn't obvious, where is that supposed to come from? If someone wants to tell me the GM will declare it in advance, I'll just laugh.

If the combat has been going on for more than a couple of rounds, and there have already been successful attacks against someone, then the slick spot is a pool of blood.

You're not having a combat in a featureless room; you're out in the wilderness or in a cave or something like that, and you, the player, are not going to stand there looking around for a round or three so you can note the location of every single potential tripping hazard. The ground is uneven and littered with debris: rocks, fallen branches, old and probably damp leaf piles, animal holes, old bones, and who knows what else. When the fighter drank a potion of healing, they didn't neatly put the bottle in the proper trash receptacle; they tossed it to the ground and jumped back into the fray. Plus, there may be very poor lighting, especially underground.

Seriously, if you're fighting in the woods, there's a good chance that the area will be something like this:

or this

Or this

Where aren't there potentially dangerous spots? Remember, the last two pics are lit with modern-day lights, not flickering torches or whatever quality of light a light spell puts out. And the only reason the bottom dungeon is so clean is that it's a modern-day tourist attraction, not something that's the home to monsters. (Edit: the dungeon is old--it's one in Prague--but it's used as a modern tourist attraction.)

 

[Faolyn]

The problem is when you have people that have been taught that player has the right to do that.

And that's why PbtA and similar games have lists of GM agendas, principles, and moves--so they either have a way to unlearn that mentality, or never acquire it in the first place.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Then you may be the type of player that at least for me and my group is not a good fit. This sort of behavior is adjacent to rules lawyering which is widely disparaged in my quarters.

If by "rules lawyering" you mean "expecting the rules to be used as written unless the GM has formally changed them" then, yes, I do that too and expect my players to.

This probably fits with what I said above. We don't play the same sort of games.

The DM's decision is final in every game I've played in. The game is a lot more fun that way for a lot of us. YMMV.

And does. I think "the DMs decision is final" without qualification has done the hobby no good over the years and I see no reason to automatically respect it. Obviously at some point you need to move on, but those aren't the same statements.

 

[Thomas Shey]

If the combat has been going on for more than a couple of rounds, and there have already been successful attacks against someone, then the slick spot is a pool of blood.

You're not having a combat in a featureless room; you're out in the wilderness or in a cave or something like that, and you, the player, are not going to stand there looking around for a round or three so you can note the location of every single potential tripping hazard. The ground is uneven and littered with debris: rocks, fallen branches, old and probably damp leaf piles, animal holes, old bones, and who knows what else. When the fighter drank a potion of healing, they didn't neatly put the bottle in the proper trash receptacle; they tossed it to the ground and jumped back into the fray. Plus, there may be very poor lighting, especially underground.

Seriously, if you're fighting in the woods, there's a good chance that the area will be something like this:


Where aren't there potentially dangerous spots? Remember, the last two pics are lit with modern-day lights, not flickering torches or whatever quality of light a light spell puts out. And the only reason the bottom dungeon is so clean is that it's a modern-day tourist attraction, not something that's the home to monsters. (Edit: the dungeon is old--it's one in Prague--but it's used as a modern tourist attraction.)

Even in the best conditions--flat meadows with short grass, hard-baked arid turf--there can be things that aren't obvious, and as you say, as the fight has gone on, that's going to impact the terrain to some degree too.

This applies to a lot of non-combat situations too. Even a skilled climber can't always spot the chunk of brittle rock, especially if they're under time pressure. When choosing the words to try and convince the magistrate you weren't up to no good, are you going to know that a particular ongoing pest has used similar phrasing?

To some extent, the cases where you really have full information to deploy a skill is the rarity, and in some cases, probably impossible.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Well that was the official stance of the games founder and fundamental to the earlier editions of D&D.

And it was toxic back then, too.

And to both of you: It is a game amongst friends. It's not like someone is emperor of the world. They are the DM for the game.

If its a game among friends, then the one running it should feel a need to be in charge every inch of the way.

 

[Enrahim]

And it was toxic back then, too.

At all tables? Or at some tables?

If its a game among friends, then the one running it should feel a need to be in charge every inch of the way.

I guess there is a missing negation in this sentence?

Anyway, it seem like my group of friends felt a need of me "being in charge all the way". I do not feel that much of a need myself. As referenced above, they disliked it when I bound myself to the rules.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

without qualification

It’s not “without qualification” though. The DM has responsibilities. Such as being fair, listening to players, making sure everyone feels included, etc. Pretty much all games make that clear. And even if they didn’t, it’s just a matter of common sense.