D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Thomas Shey]

Ah, I think I might have evidence something has changed in this regard though. The big one being if this data is prior to the advent of online play as a real option.

That would describe the majority of it, yes. Though the amount I've acquired since then doesn't seem to point to significant change, but you can absolutely question the sample size just within the last half decade when that became a dominant play context.

I think many a tyrannical DMs might have found their player base evaporate with the advent of relative ease of seeking out alternatives. Even prior to that, play forums would have contributed to raising awareness about the problem which is likely to embolden counter-measures.

Regarding the latter, unfortunately it also provides more opportunity for GMs who think problems in this area are mostly players' fault. You can see examples of that in this thread.

You have an argument with your first part, but the problem is, people have been taught this is just "how it is", so they aren't going to think to bail except in the most egregious cases. It might be more true with newer players who've yet to internalize that. And of course if you happen to hop from one heavily top down GM to another to another you're only going to keep looking so long; getting your schedule set up with a game you avowedly want to play in is not completely zero-friction process even with VTT play.

(Also note the number of complaints you get about VTT players flaking out on games. Now some of that's certainly just flakey people being flakey. But in my more cynical moments I have to wonder a GM keeps having that happen perhaps there's something else in play).

That this was a known and real problem during forge-times for instance I do not contest at all. We had almost an entire school of design obsessed with trying novel approaches to tackling the problem trough explicit rules and principles.

Well, to be clear again, I'm talking a game cultural issue rather than a rules-based one. I do think there's probably been some movement in the hobby as a whole, but a lot of this is an artifact of the style Gygax presented half a century go casting a long shadow. Some others have to do with GMing priorities I've argued against before, but I don't see bringing those up producing anything but a repeat of prior attempts, so I'll skip it.

 

[Bill Zebub]

...without consideration of all the crap I said that didn't come to pass.

Actually, I've been carefully cataloging it for several years now. Just waiting for the right moment.

 

[AlViking]

Interesting. I actually have never come across a IRL person complaining about GM authority abuse. And I have also been reasonably active in the community. It sound like there might be some culture difference somewhere. Are your data from the US by chance? I have heard rumors there might be a difference in prevailing play style compared to Europe where most of my acquaintances come from.

Edit: Also just to be sure - I assume you have been talking to current D&D players. Former D&D players is a relative minority with a very high bias to having had negative experiences with the game.

I've been very active in public games, bother game days and conventions. I've had the occasional poor-to-middlling DM because I've likely had over a hundred DMs over the decades. I can't even guess how many I've run for over the years

I have never encountered this power hungry DM flaunting their autocratic might. Meanwhile I have been at, run and heard about tables where the other players expressed their appreciation of the DM shutting down rude, abusive, overly domineering players. Maybe that's just a numbers thing since 5-6 players per DM is typical.

I want the GM to make a call during the course of the game when there's a disagreement. We can always talk things through offline but if you get a half dozen people playing a game wit somewhat complex rules, occasionally there's a disagreement. If you don't have one person designated to make the decisions, my experience with committees and similar is that the loudest or most obstinate person ends up making the decision. I don't see how that's any better.

 

[jayoungr]

Enough anecdotes are data, no matter what anyone tells you.

In order to have enough data to accept it as a prevailing trend, I'd need to hear from more than just one person plus friend group's sample. After all, how do I know you're just not unusually touchy about anything that smacks of authority, and tend to attract friends with similar views? Maybe the things you and your friends consider to be authoritarian would just be called "structured" by other players.

 

[Thomas Shey]

In order to have enough data to accept it as a prevailing trend, I'd need to hear from more than just one person plus friend group's sample.

When I'm talking about possibly exceeding 400 groups, you could perhaps assume (correctly) that I'm exceeding that. Now, you can argue that convention groups, APA participants, mailing list groups and fora participants (which make up the majority of groups outside my personal penumbra) are not overly representational, but there's also nothing about that selection to suggest that in this area they'd be atypical in one direction either.

After all, how do I know you're just not unusually touchy about anything that smacks of authority, and tend to attract friends with similar views? Maybe the things you and your friends consider to be authoritarian would just be called "structured" by other players.

See above. This is far, far away from just me and my personal contacts.

 

[Lanefan]

The 5e Sage Advice clarified that there is Magic(spellcasting, spell like abilities, magical powers, etc.) and magic(background magic that infuses everything). The latter isn't subject to anti-magic spheres and is what allows those things to happen.

Kind of like what I do except null-magic (as opposed to and distinct from anti-magic) does affect those things, and being in a null-magic area for any length of time (a few minutes to a few weeks, depending on how magic-based something is) will kill magic-based creatures. We live on a null-magic planet.

Otherwise, this might be the first time I've ever known 5e Sage Advice to say something sensible (as in, that I agree with).

 

[Umbran]

Actually, I've been carefully cataloging it for several years now. Just waiting for the right moment.

Excellent. I want to be a prophet about as much as Kirk wanted to be an Admiral.

 

[Umbran]

Enough anecdotes are data, no matter what anyone tells you.

Oh, no they aint!

Look, there's a whole lot that a credible researcher does to support the integrity of data that regular people just don't do with anecdotes. Like, record them individually and separately, with accompanying metadata.

 

[Lanefan]

I don't think there are any Type-I facts in an RPG.

I disagree.

Gravity, for example. Depending on the size/density of your game world it might not have exactly the same effects as here on Earth - someone who weighs 180 lb here might only weigh 165 lb there, using the same sacle each time - but the underlying physics are Type-I.

Even something as simple as saying that the PCs are breathing air isn't going to accurately portray all of the gas mixture here in the real world, which can vary slightly.

If you get it (or assume it to be) the same as here then for play purposes it's Type-I.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Oh, no they aint!

Look, there's a whole lot that a credible researcher does to support the integrity of data that regular people just don't do with anecdotes. Like, record them individually and separately, with accompanying metadata.

The problem is this writes off whole categories of social science as "not science" because all you can get are anecdotes. And sometimes you can only get so many of them. Arguably, any intermittent phenomenon that can't be duplicated experimentally is "anecdote" but that doesn't stop people from using them because sometimes that's all you've got.

Data is data. The desire to make collecting it as rigorous as possible is a virtue, but writing it off because that's not, in practice, possible does assessing the world no favors.